Baker Mayfield Gets his Coach Fired!!!

[nickers]

4 hours ago, lodilobo said:

Bottom line....we are much worse this season than last season. The only change other than so called "improvements to the defense".....is Mayfield. I'm not saying he was great, but in his 4 seasons, he was a hell of a lot better than he looks now. I chalk it up to the Browns ruining another qb.  Yes...if they would have drafted Josh Allen, Mahomes or Lamar Jackson we would still be in the same boat. Just my opinion.

And we will more than likely get a "shitty" version of Deshaun Watson when he returns... As I have stated in the past..He's been on a 2 year layoff.. He looked less than pedestrian in his lone preseason start.. I would bet stacks of money that Jimmy Haslam regrets making this STUPID ASS trade...

[tiamat63]

9 hours ago, Flugel said:

He's getting beat right out of stance in his 3rd year.  He looked much better as a rookie to me. We can overthink the crap out of this. Jedrick Wills started all 16 games as a rookie and played every offensive snap in 13 of those contests.  In the playoffs against KC he injured his ankle on the 1st snap and missed the rest of that game.  His 2nd year was the year he missed games to the high ankle sprain and later attempted to play through it. 

If anyone has played OL throughout high school, college and now a few years at the NFL level - chances are he's been asked to play on both sides of Center. If you got to football camps, you don't say "hold on, I'm a RG only/RT only."  You play where they put you at.  The same thing applies if you're a junior on a varsity team with a very good returning starter at your position - sometimes the choice is you can start at the other guard or tackle spot right now (and go for the other one when you're a senior).  That happens more than you think even to guys that make 1st Team All County their senior year.  Kevin Shaffer played LT and RT for us (after playing LT his entire time in ATL but he was actually better when we switched him over to the right side). Orlando Brown has played RT and LT after playing LT exclusively at Oklahoma. He made the Pro Bowl at RT (he made some Pro Bowls at RT and I think he might have been named 2nd Team All Pro?).  That said, he wanted to return to LT and KC went after him with very good FA money to do that.  If a guy wants it bad enough, there's no way he should be confused with his footwork in his 3rd NFL season.

While I get your point about what we're paying the OTs here - we just signed a QB with a guaranteed contract of 230 million $.  I'm not comfortable with lazy and uninspired at LT (from a 6th overall pick).  DeShaun Watson is patient in the pocket and has been sacked because of that in spite of how fast and agile he is.  By the time he hits the field here, I want Wills to be the guy we need him to be. He's got all the tools and the best OL Coach in the league.  All that said, my biggest question from what I'm seeing is - does he have the inner chest/commitment level needed?  

In order.

- I've pointed out a couple of the reasons for being beat out of his stance.   He struggles at times with elite, quick twitch speed.  When he does, that is also where I double down on my "thinking about his footwork" comment.  Because instead of that being 2nd nature, he oversets and losses his base/feet.

- You are correct about camps, but most players have their definitive collegiate position locked in by senior year of high school.  So your college campaign is much like what the Ivy League calls a "concentration".  Plus you also have to consider, does Jed have the natural kinetics that allow him to be great on the left side? Or merely 'pretty ok' on the left side?

- Kevin Schaeffer isn't a great example because he was, rather easily, the weakest link on a good Oline.  He moved tackle spots because there wasn't a prayer he had of beating out Joe Thomas.  And, in 2007, the premium on pass protection wasn't as high for a RT as it can be in 2022.    You are spot on about Orlando though, who is a rare example. Save for one big caveat, he was in a Ravens run-heavy system that didn't ask him to handle pass rushers on straight drops as much as a team like KC would have if he had played RT there as a rookie.  This sort of things helps to ease the transition to the other side of the line.   I mention that because you said Jed looked better as a rookie, by no small coincidence the year the Browns were a run heavy, ball action team that didn't have to rely on a straight-drop passing game, where Jed likely would have seen more of his flaws exposed earlier.  

 

 

I just don't see Jed being lazy as I so much just see him being straight up overmatched at times as an athlete.

[Flugel]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

In order.

- I've pointed out a couple of the reasons for being beat out of his stance.   He struggles at times with elite, quick twitch speed.  When he does, that is also where I double down on my "thinking about his footwork" comment.  Because instead of that being 2nd nature, he oversets and losses his base/feet.

- You are correct about camps, but most players have their definitive collegiate position locked in by senior year of high school.  So your college campaign is much like what the Ivy League calls a "concentration".  Plus you also have to consider, does Jed have the natural kinetics that allow him to be great on the left side? Or merely 'pretty ok' on the left side?

- Kevin Schaeffer isn't a great example because he was, rather easily, the weakest link on a good Oline.  He moved tackle spots because there wasn't a prayer he had of beating out Joe Thomas.  And, in 2007, the premium on pass protection wasn't as high for a RT as it can be in 2022.    You are spot on about Orlando though, who is a rare example. Save for one big caveat, he was in a Ravens run-heavy system that didn't ask him to handle pass rushers on straight drops as much as a team like KC would have if he had played RT there as a rookie.  This sort of things helps to ease the transition to the other side of the line.   I mention that because you said Jed looked better as a rookie, by no small coincidence the year the Browns were a run heavy, ball action team that didn't have to rely on a straight-drop passing game, where Jed likely would have seen more of his flaws exposed earlier.  

 

 

I just don't see Jed being lazy as I so much just see him being straight up overmatched at times as an athlete.

Tia, I agree with some of what you're sayin and I like the part in bold above. I could be wrong here but I thought Wills developed some bad habits the the second year he had the high ankle sprain.   I think the injury gave him an excuse to be lazy at times; and where I see him being lazy currently is when he just makes an initial hit and doesn't sustain it and/or he doesn't hustle to the 2nd level.  

Keep in mind, the guy inside of Kevin Shaffer was Joe Andruzzi who only passed a physical for Cleveland ironically enough.  That poor guy couldn't even get out of his stance any more so it wasn't like Joe Thomas as a rookie lining up next to Eric Steinbach.  Kevin Shaffer actually graded out higher as a RT for us than he ever did as a LT (where he had all his previous experience). He had a pretty good year as a RT.  I'm just addressing the footwork thing.  It was an easier transition than you think.  That said, I'll agree it's harder to go from RT to LT than it is from LT to RT.  Not so much just because of the footwork - but overall you need a better athlete at LT (and I like that you mentioned that).  That said, I look at Orlando Brown and his pre-draft fitness fitness cost him some rounds at the draft as well as his position of choice (Left Tackle).  He's a Left Tackle today for Andy Reid but a lot of that is from how much ground his upper and lower levers cover IMO.  

When I saw Wills at the combines, I was VERY impressed with his agility.  Then again, he didn't have an NFL salary yet. I hope my gut is wrong about him; and it could very well be.  I just have to see more from him.

[Flugel]

On 10/31/2022 at 8:27 PM, Flugel said:

When I saw Wills at the combines, I was VERY impressed with his agility.  Then again, he didn't have an NFL salary yet. I hope my gut is wrong about him; and it could very well be.  I just have to see more from him.

So what I do when there's no one to argue with?  Argue with myself of course.

I saw a lot of stuff I liked from Wills on Monday Night.  I saw him getting to the 2nd tier and I saw him sustaining blocks better. It looked like he was getting out of his stance quicker.  Trey Hendrickson was a Pro Bowl DE last year; and he compiled 27.5 sacks over the previous 2 seasons combined. Consequently, that was a very challenging matchup Wills stepped up to the plate for.  Hendrickson may not be Myles Garrett out of the stance but he keeps a good leverage to stay powerful and quick enough to compile those 27.5 sacks in a 2 year period.  I'd be very happy with more games like this from him.

The other LT in the matchup Monday Night was a 1st round draft pick from Alabama as well.  Right now, that poor guy is stashing that Coyote Ugly memory as far away as possible.  Unfortunately, his OL coach won't be...

I wish I had better access to film; but Tia does an incredible job of studying it, bringing it, and breaking it down for us.     

Edited November 2, 2022 by Flugel

[tiamat63]

3 hours ago, Flugel said:

So what I do when there's no one to argue with?  Argue with myself of course.

I saw a lot of stuff I liked from Wills on Monday Night.  I saw him getting to the 2nd tier and I saw him sustaining blocks better. It looked like he was getting out of his stance quicker.  Trey Hendrickson was a Pro Bowl DE last year; and he compiled 27.5 sacks over the previous 2 seasons combined. Consequently, that was a very challenging matchup Wills stepped up to the plate for.  Hendrickson may not be Myles Garrett out of the stance but he keeps a good leverage to stay powerful and quick enough to compile those 27.5 sacks in a 2 year period.  I'd be very happy with more games like this from him.

The other LT in the matchup Monday Night was a 1st round draft pick from Alabama as well.  Right now, that poor guy is stashing that Coyote Ugly memory as far away as possible.  Unfortunately, his OL coach won't be...

I wish I had better access to film; but Tia does an incredible job of studying it, bringing it, and breaking it down for us.     

 

 I had completely forgot to come back to this conversation.  I was still in a fog from partying WAY too hard on the weekend.  That's my bad, I wouldn't show that type of disregard to one of the OG's... you've been around here ALOT longer than I have. 

 

 Anywho, I don't think we disagree on Wills not being to the standard we would like.  Only the root issue behind that, in the end we have a similar conclusion. The question is, how does this effect the future of the Oline and how, if you do, pay the man?

 

 A saw a bit of the same as you did Monday night, and I think it plays into what I was saying earlier.  And it's funny because it's a bit opposite from Joe Thomas.   JT could handle elite speed all day, his footwork and wingspan allowed for it.   But he struggled at times with the elite strength and bull rush - See, Suggs; Terrell 

 

Hendrickson is built more in the mold of a Suggs.  Great burst to strength transition, but doesnt have the elite first step to bend the edge, for example a Von Miller.  Nothing wrong with that, it is what it is.  Joe would handle Von, but Jed would struggle.  Where I believe Joe would have a bit more difficulty with the rush of Hendrickson, while Jed is shorter and more of a wide body.  So you aren't really going to walk through him when he anchors. 

 At least, that's the working theory. I'll have more when I get to start watching the All-22 later.