Baker Mayfield Gets his Coach Fired!!!

[Flugel]

13 hours ago, Flugel said:

 

I fully understand you can't fire the owner.  Like it or not, he's the disease causing all these symptoms killing our fun and enthusiasm right now. Do you know how many head coaches and coordinators we've fired since 1999? Has it FREAKING worked yet?  This is why I called out the guys thinking every single week "all we gotta do is fire the Head Coach?"  I believe I specified the "Fire The HC Guys" thinking that's the only problem every week.  And why? Who always hires the next Head Coach?  The owner using the same piss poor hiring criteria he used the last time. And how many playoff wins do we have since 1999 with all the rinsing and repeating of hire and fire?    The last time our owner hired a Head Coach it was 2 weeks before he hired the GM.  Lucky for both, a lot of pieces were already in place to put together an 11-5 season and advance out of the 1st round of the playoffs with this Head Coach and all 3 Coordinators (2 that have struggled badly this year).  A lot of that 2020 success was with personnel from previous FOs.

I'll be the 1st to agree the Special Teams Coordinator and the Defensive Coordinator have been disappointing.  This is where we need a Head Coach that wants to be the Head Coach he was hired to be instead of just an emotionless play-caller on game day. That's only 1 phase of the game shedding a blind eye to the other 2 phases that have been losing most of our games.  

Are the players that have been drafted/acquired since 2020 getting developed and improving so this team could take the next step from that 2020 success? Or, are we reverting back to our losing ways?  

The 2nd part I bolded above from you isn't really a bad idea per say.  My guess is the input usually comes from the Head Coach (after he meets with all of his Coordinators) not just the DC to give his GM a list of major needs determined by the Coordinators/Coaching Staff.  Having said that, there's a lot of egos in GM positions and our GM doesn't look like he wants to prioritize the DT position within our salary cap or on draft day.

I would NEVER mind firing a coach if I was assured the next one wasn't going to be just as disappointing as the one that needed to go.   

 

After further review, I don't care what this owner knee-jerks next.  Isn't it FUN to watch the disappointing product this owner treats us to?  I mean how many other fan bases get to wait until their 12th game of the season to see their face of the franchise take the field?  The way they are playing, we're projecting a 2-9 record full of warm fuzzies with "ALL OF THIS TALENT" I've hear about ad-nauseum. 

So, while we're arguing fart smells - YES, I'd love it if Sean Payton would touch this franchise/employer with a 10' pole.  But he's REALLY intelligent so good luck with that.  I would even LOVE to see a Defensive Coordinator that could get someone in the 2nd/3rd tier a little closer to the uncontested TEs than 40 yards away from the reception and red carpet YAC to follow.  Of course I would.  I would also like to see better instincts in our defensive players than that of raccoons crossing busy highways at night time.

THIS YEAR, our Owner/FO has waived the entire season on 1 move.  It's over.  There's no playoffs and feel free to take inventory of the reactions from the small handful that showed up to the game day thread.  Again, he had his best year statistically on a mismanaged team exactly like this one for a season Houston ended with a 4-12 record.

What do you suppose the moral of the team is like as we speak?  Think there's a lot of "WTF am I doing at this Hell hole?"  

So, they can fire all the coaches they want to - we still have the Knee Jerk owner giving us fans the Achey-Breaky heart.  Sure, give us another round of fire the Coach...  It won't matter.   That said, I heard if you watched Rocky I ten times - he finally wins the 10th time you try.  Man was I ever pissed that wasn't true!  Maybe those thinking all we gotta do is fire the Coach will get a better outcome.  Unfortunately, I've been watching this promise fail for decades. Maybe Ted Lasso can save us!

 

[calfoxwc]

19 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Woods has an excuse for the results of the FO saddling him with the worst IDL in the league. To begin with, I say to that: if he saw the IDL as a problem himself, he should have put his foot down and demand investment in that position.

If Stefanski wasn't so much a pansy - he would have insisted. All about the sickening trade.

The Browns had #13 pick last draft. They traded it away, and the texans traded it away to the Eagles. Guess who they dreafted with that 13 pick.

Jordan Davis. just, dammit. dammit. dammit.

**************************************************

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com › 2022 › 10 › 12 › 23400266 › eagles-news-jordan-davis-making-big-impact-defensive-tackle-line-football-line-rookie-phildaelphia

Eagles News: Jordan Davis is making a big impact

5 days agoPhiladelphia Eagles defensive tackle Jordan Davis had a reputation even before he played a down in the NFL. Running a 4.78-second 40-yard dash at 6-foot-6 and over 340 pounds will do that. Davis ...

[Westside Steve]

And the Panthers officially throw in the towel.

https://pantherswire.usatoday.com/2022/10/21/scott-fitterer-panthers-tank-draft-trade-christian-mccaffrey/?utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook

WSS

[Unsympathetic]

PJ Walker delivers the best QB performance of Panthers' season to date vs Bucs.  They already had their future on the roster..

Only negative here is the lowered 2023 draft compensation coming to us.

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

On 10/17/2022 at 7:22 AM, Flugel said:

After further review, I don't care what this owner knee-jerks next.  Isn't it FUN to watch the disappointing product this owner treats us to?  I mean how many other fan bases get to wait until their 12th game of the season to see their face of the franchise take the field?  The way they are playing, we're projecting a 2-9 record full of warm fuzzies with "ALL OF THIS TALENT" I've hear about ad-nauseum. 

So, while we're arguing fart smells - YES, I'd love it if Sean Payton would touch this franchise/employer with a 10' pole.  But he's REALLY intelligent so good luck with that.  I would even LOVE to see a Defensive Coordinator that could get someone in the 2nd/3rd tier a little closer to the uncontested TEs than 40 yards away from the reception and red carpet YAC to follow.  Of course I would.  I would also like to see better instincts in our defensive players than that of raccoons crossing busy highways at night time.

THIS YEAR, our Owner/FO has waived the entire season on 1 move.  It's over.  There's no playoffs and feel free to take inventory of the reactions from the small handful that showed up to the game day thread.  Again, he had his best year statistically on a mismanaged team exactly like this one for a season Houston ended with a 4-12 record.

What do you suppose the moral of the team is like as we speak?  Think there's a lot of "WTF am I doing at this Hell hole?"  

So, they can fire all the coaches they want to - we still have the Knee Jerk owner giving us fans the Achey-Breaky heart.  Sure, give us another round of fire the Coach...  It won't matter.   That said, I heard if you watched Rocky I ten times - he finally wins the 10th time you try.  Man was I ever pissed that wasn't true!  Maybe those thinking all we gotta do is fire the Coach will get a better outcome.  Unfortunately, I've been watching this promise fail for decades. Maybe Ted Lasso can save us!

 

I posted in another thread that I equated Haslam with this [insert name of any generic brain damaged individual] guy. I think he is a babbling moron and just like a pinball bounces around, except.in his case he bounces off other NFL ecexs who see him as a job source for their unemployed NFL exec friends.

He is the quintessential NFL guinea pig.

If he had a friendship with just one of the many astute fans who post here I believe things would change for the better.

We are resigned to the chances of a blind squirrel finding an acorn.

I honestly believe that Depodesta is the defacto Gm/Head Coach of this team.

 

[nickers]

15 hours ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

I posted in another thread that I equated Haslam with this [generic brain damaged individual]guy. I think he is a babbling moron and just like a pinball bounces around, except.in his case he bounces off other NFL ecexs who see him as a job source for their unemployed NFL exec friends.

He is the quintessential NFL guinea pig.

If he had a friendship with just one of the many astute fans who post here I believe things would change for the better.

We are resigned to the chances of a blind squirrel finding an acorn.

I honestly believe that Depodesta is the defacto Gm/Head Coach of this team.

 

Correct!

[Westside Steve]

15 hours ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

I posted in another thread that I equated Haslam with this [insert name of any generic brain damaged individual] guy. I think he is a babbling moron and just like a pinball bounces around, except.in his case he bounces off other NFL ecexs who see him as a job source for their unemployed NFL exec friends.

He is the quintessential NFL guinea pig.

If he had a friendship with just one of the many astute fans who post here I believe things would change for the better.

We are resigned to the chances of a blind squirrel finding an acorn.

I honestly believe that Depodesta is the defacto Gm/Head Coach of this team.

 

For those complaining I didn't really see anything political about this but I've sanitized it for your protection. Keep the politics to the political board.

WSS

[Westside Steve]

So back to the topic: besides the fact that the title was edited by a baker hater those of you who blamed the Browns problems on him last year don't have him to kick around anymore. With every loss it becomes more obvious that the problem rests solely with the ownership and management of the team. (not on the few minutes it takes to do and insurance company commercial) Whatever reasons you guys had in your heads for the team not playing well for Baker have to notice they're not playing well for any quarterback. There's unrest in the locker room screaming matches after the games apparently the coach has lost control of the team. Maybe they've got the idea that he's not really in charge? If Baker bitched that teammates weren't giving 100% looks like he was right. They still aren't. Now not even halfway through the season they are talking about house cleaning. Ain't that great? We don't even know who's calling the shots in berea. Who has Jimmy's ear this week? Depodesta? Trying to run a football team with dianetics or whatever you call it because he saw it in a baseball movie? How is Andrew Berry the new Genius of the NFL looking today as the team prepares to dump many of the golden pics he made? In a rebuilding process before Golden Boy Watson ever steps on the field? Hooray Clowny came back so he could play with watson. How's he looking? Same as always? Greedy Williams living up to his pre-draft criticism? With full knowledge that Watson wasn't going to be here for a good portion of the season who made the decision to go with a perennial benchwarmer? And Joe Woods? Not a Hall of Fame coach so far but he didn't draft the players they gave him. Think about it, Ozzie Newsome didn't have a Harvard Education.

Of course all this comes from me a Baker Mayfield fan and whether or not he ever starts another game in the NFL it doesn't look like he was the problem. 

Hey they might stun the bungholes on Monday let's see if that keeps whatever Talent we have left on the team after their contract comes up. But if you are basing football operations on a baseball movie it looks more like major league than Moneyball.

WSS

 

[Unsympathetic]

Browns historical draft picks

Berry hired at Browns as GM: 1/27/20.  2020 NFL draft : 4/23-25. 
I don't want to give Berry a pass on 2020 because he had nearly 3 full months to prep.

Berry has had 10 picks in the first 3 rounds. His only obvious hits have been every single first pick he's made [Wills, Newsome, Emerson] and one more - JOK.

2020: Wills, Delpit, Elliot, Phillips.  Hit/Miss/Miss/Miss

2021: Newsome, JOK, Schwartz.  Hit/Hit/Miss

2022: Emerson, Wright, Bell. Hit / Paging @tiamat63 / Bench Splinters

I want those last two to work out, but it's not looking great.  Berry does deserve credit for the day3 picks in 2022 -- Winfrey, York, Ford, and Thomas have all flashed so far and look like solid depth.. which is a lot more than you can say about prior drafts.

As well, Berry deserves credit for identifying Pocic and pulling the trigger.. Pocic has played far better than anyone else would have guessed.

But his hit rate isn't anything close to "great" -- An actual recent Great Draft Class is Seattle's 2022.

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

So back to the topic: besides the fact that the title was edited by a baker hater those of you who blamed the Browns problems on him last year don't have him to kick around anymore. With every loss it becomes more obvious that the problem rests solely with the ownership and management of the team. (not on the few minutes it takes to do and insurance company commercial) Whatever reasons you guys had in your heads for the team not playing well for Baker have to notice they're not playing well for any quarterback. There's unrest in the locker room screaming matches after the games apparently the coach has lost control of the team. Maybe they've got the idea that he's not really in charge? If Baker bitched that teammates weren't giving 100% looks like he was right. They still aren't. Now not even halfway through the season they are talking about house cleaning. Ain't that great? We don't even know who's calling the shots in berea. Who has Jimmy's ear this week? Depodesta? Trying to run a football team with dianetics or whatever you call it because he saw it in a baseball movie? How is Andrew Berry the new Genius of the NFL looking today as the team prepares to dump many of the golden pics he made? In a rebuilding process before Golden Boy Watson ever steps on the field? Hooray Clowny came back so he could play with watson. How's he looking? Same as always? Greedy Williams living up to his pre-draft criticism? With full knowledge that Watson wasn't going to be here for a good portion of the season who made the decision to go with a perennial benchwarmer? And Joe Woods? Not a Hall of Fame coach so far but he didn't draft the players they gave him. Think about it, Ozzie Newsome didn't have a Harvard Education.

Of course all this comes from me a Baker Mayfield fan and whether or not he ever starts another game in the NFL it doesn't look like he was the problem. 

Hey they might stun the bungholes on Monday let's see if that keeps whatever Talent we have left on the team after their contract comes up. But if you are basing football operations on a baseball movie it looks more like major league than Moneyball.

WSS

 

Steve, it is reasonable that all you say is true, but Baker indeed stinks.

To argue that the Browns were never built around Baker's skill set would be to be clueless.

What happens to him in Carolina has no bearing on what happened.to him in Cleveland.

The pathology that you addressed is real and repeating. The only things common to all our woes and bad seasons are the owner and executive managent..

There is something that the players can see but that we can't that has them becoming so bad after a great initial media assessment, prediction.

[Canton Dawg]

21 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

Browns historical draft picks

Berry hired at Browns as GM: 1/27/20.  2020 NFL draft : 4/23-25. 
I don't want to give Berry a pass on 2020 because he had nearly 3 full months to prep.

Berry has had 10 picks in the first 3 rounds. His only obvious hits have been every single first pick he's made [Wills, Newsome, Emerson] and one more - JOK.

2020: Wills, Delpit, Elliot, Phillips.  Hit/Miss/Miss/Miss

2021: Newsome, JOK, Schwartz.  Hit/Hit/Miss

2022: Emerson, Wright, Bell. Hit / Paging @tiamat63 / Bench Splinters

I want those last two to work out, but I won't lose sleep if they don't.  Berry does deserve credit for the day3 picks in 2022 -- Winfrey, York, Ford, and Thomas have all flashed so far and look like solid depth.. which is a lot more than you can say about prior drafts.

Calling Wills a “hit” is quite a stretch, I think he’s serviceable but not 1st round quality.

BTW, JOK wasn’t a first round selection.

[Unsympathetic]

League leaderboard overall win rates thru week 7.

Wills is #5 in the league in OT pass rush win rate, above Conklin.

Pocic is #8 for all C in passrush win rate, #9 for all C in runblock win rate - no other Brown is in top10 runblock rate.

Browns as a team #1 in passblock rate, #17 in runblock.

[Flugel]

3 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

So back to the topic: besides the fact that the title was edited by a baker hater those of you who blamed the Browns problems on him last year don't have him to kick around anymore. With every loss it becomes more obvious that the problem rests solely with the ownership and management of the team. (not on the few minutes it takes to do and insurance company commercial) Whatever reasons you guys had in your heads for the team not playing well for Baker have to notice they're not playing well for any quarterback. There's unrest in the locker room screaming matches after the games apparently the coach has lost control of the team. Maybe they've got the idea that he's not really in charge? If Baker bitched that teammates weren't giving 100% looks like he was right. They still aren't. Now not even halfway through the season they are talking about house cleaning. Ain't that great? We don't even know who's calling the shots in berea. Who has Jimmy's ear this week? Depodesta? Trying to run a football team with dianetics or whatever you call it because he saw it in a baseball movie? How is Andrew Berry the new Genius of the NFL looking today as the team prepares to dump many of the golden pics he made? In a rebuilding process before Golden Boy Watson ever steps on the field? Hooray Clowny came back so he could play with watson. How's he looking? Same as always? Greedy Williams living up to his pre-draft criticism? With full knowledge that Watson wasn't going to be here for a good portion of the season who made the decision to go with a perennial benchwarmer? And Joe Woods? Not a Hall of Fame coach so far but he didn't draft the players they gave him. Think about it, Ozzie Newsome didn't have a Harvard Education.

Of course all this comes from me a Baker Mayfield fan and whether or not he ever starts another game in the NFL it doesn't look like he was the problem. 

Hey they might stun the bungholes on Monday let's see if that keeps whatever Talent we have left on the team after their contract comes up. But if you are basing football operations on a baseball movie it looks more like major league than Moneyball.

WSS

 

That was a great read.  DePodesta was who Jonah Hill played in the movie Money Ball; and he was an incredible success in a Sport where the bigger payrolls (Goliath) beats (David) smaller payrolls.  The formula was way more compatible with baseball (onbase % leading to runs scored, etc). That said, they would go after guys with imperfections in he field or on the mound that traditional scouts for the bigger market payrolls would refrain from. There's a lot of "you gotta rob Peter to pay Paul" mentality in terms of what you'll give up to score runs or strike someone out. Loved that movie because the OWNER that couldn't beat the Yankees (or compete with them) in the ALCS the year before - had to cut payroll even more-so. After doing so, the FO there still made it to the playoffs after getting rid of their 3 biggest stars/highest paid players.

Believe it or not, DePodesta DID play college football in the Ivy League so I had some degree of hope he'd do some similar stuff with football and it would work.  I thought we were on our way as recently as the post season in January of 2021.  Not that long ago; but suddenly it feels like a decade ago. 

Fans always want to pick out their favorite symptom thinking the 1 change will right the ship; so they push for it like it's going to move the glacier this owner is steering his version of the Titanic at.  You brought up Baker and getting rid of him and adding a QB that was 4-12 the last time he played for an owner like Haslam.  I hope it's worth it because this franchise is only 1 more Message Therapy session gone wrong away from an extended period of the football fans are protesting today.  Don't worry folks, I'll agree symptoms like Joe Woods, Mike Priefer and personnel are painful. In the NFL's easiest place to lose a locker room - it's now happening to the 2020 Coach of the Year.  Fans will continue to argue whose Head they want from King Herrod-Haslam all the while refusing to see the problem is actually King Herrod-Haslam.  Not to worry, this Poseiden Adventure on Lake Erie has more sequels than Halloween and Friday the 13th put together.  The King of this Kingdom will fire some or all of the symptoms of his previous criteria-free hiring only to rinse and repeat the same thing.  Hopefully this time he'll at least have a GM in place before he hires the next Head Coach so their football philosophies have a better shot at being compatible than forced and fingers crossed. For that matter, I don't even know how compatible DePodesta and Berry are.  

I know we can't fire the owner; but before we choose the next enemy on this team or in the organization - we can all do a better job of digging deeper on what really is the problem.  Is it really only a symptom or 2 of the much bigger problem?  And about the Baker stuff, yeah hindsight tells us he wasn't the right #1 overall pick. Was he really as horrible in Cleveland as the finished product Carolina fans have gagged on?  He came to an 0-16 team and set the rookie QB record with 27 TD passes in only 13 starts(14 appearances) leading a team that was previously 1-31 to a 7-8-1 record. Even that year before he took the field - the team was 0-1-1 and losing to the Jets by 14 points before he led the Browns to a comeback victory.  I blame Baker for being too content and complacent after the promising start.  That said, I'm also going to swim against the current of popular opinion give this organization a great deal of credit for the final product Carolina is stuck with. Maybe the same Brian Daboll currently changing minds about Daniel Jones and previously unpopular 1st round draft prospect Josh Allen could have equipped him with the things he's done for the 2 guys with less success before Daboll's teachings.  That was moldable clay that became mold and mildew in Haslam's forever toxic kingdom. Ask yourself, would Josh Allen have been given the chance to do what he does best right here in Cleveland?  Tim Couch once had a 62 yard run as a rookie right before half against the Rams.  Chris Palmer sprinted toward his rookie QB with Couch thinking he'd be complimented for the toughness; but Palmer ripped him a new ass saying we're paying you to pass the ball and keep yourself healthy - not pretend you're a RB.  Big parts of Josh Allen's and Daniel Jones' game under Daboll is running the football especially when opportunities red carpet and reward it.  It can certainly be a big part of Watson's game as it was at Clemson and their National Championship, which kind of scared this organization from considering Watson for their #1 choice overall in 2017.  Now they we gave up this entire season + THREE 1st round draft picks to pay Watson a guaranteed salary of $230 million - all we have left is hope that the only massage therapist he will see the next 4 years is some big ugly bastard named Bruno Notouchami. 

In the meantime, all those that need to celebrate their "I told you so" about Baker can keep reminding us about what's going on in Carolina today while knuckleheads like me can say I was wrong about thinking that was a great choice at the time.  Understanding RB Saquon Barkley went #2 overall when the Browns drafted a better RB with its 2nd of 2 second round choices Nick Chubb only leaves the question - would Cleveland have ruined Josh Allen or withstood the growing pains Buffalo planned and accounted for in their development?  I remember when Jimmy Johnson almost gave up on Troy Aikman for Steve Walsh - Cleveland would have given up him for Joe Walsh....

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Flugel
too much coffee

[Flugel]

48 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

Browns historical draft picks

Berry hired at Browns as GM: 1/27/20.  2020 NFL draft : 4/23-25. 
I don't want to give Berry a pass on 2020 because he had nearly 3 full months to prep.

Berry has had 10 picks in the first 3 rounds. His only obvious hits have been every single first pick he's made [Wills, Newsome, Emerson] and one more - JOK.

2020: Wills, Delpit, Elliot, Phillips.  Hit/Miss/Miss/Miss

2021: Newsome, JOK, Schwartz.  Hit/Hit/Miss

2022: Emerson, Wright, Bell. Hit / Paging @tiamat63 / Bench Splinters

I want those last two to work out, but it's not looking great.  Berry does deserve credit for the day3 picks in 2022 -- Winfrey, York, Ford, and Thomas have all flashed so far and look like solid depth.. which is a lot more than you can say about prior drafts.

As well, Berry deserves credit for identifying Pocic and pulling the trigger.. Pocic has played far better than anyone else would have guessed.

But his hit rate isn't anything close to "great" -- An actual recent Great Draft Class is Seattle's 2022.

Is Wills really a hit? I thought he had a good rookie year but I thought he'd get better with more reps and experience under the teachings of the best OL Coach in the league.  I thought he adapted well to the change from RT to LT that first year.  That said, he doesn't always look inspired to sustain blocks longer than the 1st second of a 3-4 second play.  His pass pro looks lazy.  He's got the talent; but he doesn't always choose to prepare and play to it.  Hopefully that changes for the better.

[tiamat63]

On 10/29/2022 at 7:18 AM, Unsympathetic said:

 

2022: Emerson, Wright, Bell. Hit / Paging @tiamat63 / Bench Splinters

 

I'm late.  Fall Weddings *shrug*   At least it was an open bar.

Wright is....  dude's an athlete.   That's all I've got for him though. 

 And I'm going stop you on Delpit before you're onto a final determination with him.   There are things he has done VERY well, especially last season where we were expecting that next leap. There are moments of this, I'll call it 'clarity', where I see a rep and go "Yes, THAT".    I've mentioned the expanded role he has taken on this year, and I firmly believe that has a lot to do with what we're seeing in his play. Being asked to shoulder more roles is a mental, more than a physical.    Being that he's asked to wear so many hats that IMHO, he wasn't quite ready for, I'm willing to give him time to get up to speed.   The trade off is that it's pretty painful watching him try to get to that point... and he plays a position where it's incredibly easy to harm your team with a simple mistake.

 

On 10/29/2022 at 8:16 AM, Flugel said:

Is Wills really a hit? I thought he had a good rookie year but I thought he'd get better with more reps and experience under the teachings of the best OL Coach in the league.  I thought he adapted well to the change from RT to LT that first year.  That said, he doesn't always look inspired to sustain blocks longer than the 1st second of a 3-4 second play.  His pass pro looks lazy.  He's got the talent; but he doesn't always choose to prepare and play to it.  Hopefully that changes for the better.

 

 Yes and No.  Wills does enough where he won't hurt you more than he helps you.  He'll be an adequate player at a position where the Browns won't have to park bookend, Pro-Bowl tackles just to have a slightly above-average NFL offense.  Which is good, because that means less money needed to make the Oline function, provided you still have that interior wall providing the integrity for a passer like Deshaun that doesn't have an exaggerated pocket drop depth.   

Oh, and I'm still convinced there are times Jed is "thinking" about his footwork.  

[Dutch Oven]

4 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 And I'm going stop you on Delpit before you're onto a final determination with him.   There are things he has done VERY well, especially last season where he we were expecting that next leap. There are moments of this, I'll call it 'clarity', where I see a rep and go "Yes, THAT".    I've mentioned the expanded role he has taken on this year, and I firmly believe that has a lot to do with what we're seeing in his play. Being asked to shoulder more roles is a mental, more than a physical.    Being that he's asked to wear so many hats that IMHO, he wasn't quite ready for, I'm willing to give him time to get up to speed.   The trade off is that it's pretty painful watching him try to get to that point... and he plays a position where it's incredibly easy to harm your team with a simple mistake.

The thing is, he's barreling towards the end of his third season of a four year rookie deal, and he's kind of a mess.

At this point, I have doubts that the Browns front office is considering him a part of the future after next season. 

[tiamat63]

5 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

The thing is, he's barreling towards the end of his third season of a four year rookie deal, and he's kind of a mess.

At this point, I have doubts that the Browns front office is considering him a part of the future after next season. 

 He's barreling towards the end of his 2nd year playing, being that his rookie season was lost to injury, and his 1st season as a full time starter.  

 I got my ass beat wrestling freshman year because I had to flex between two weight classes, while going between J.V and varisty matches so we wouldn't forfeit a class. 

 I think I had 2, maybe 3 varisty wins that whole season?  But sophomore year I really began getting better and wrestled varsity exclusively. 

 I look at Delpit's situation in a similar way.  The light just doesn't "click on", it slowly grows brighter over time. 

[Dutch Oven]

36 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 He's barreling towards the end of his 2nd year playing, being that his rookie season was lost to injury, and his 1st season as a full time starter.  

 I got my ass beat wrestling freshman year because I had to flex between two weight classes, while going between J.V and varisty matches so we wouldn't forfeit a class. 

 I think I had 2, maybe 3 varisty wins that whole season?  But sophomore year I really began getting better and wrestled varsity exclusively. 

 I look at Delpit's situation in a similar way.  The light just doesn't "click on", it slowly grows brighter over time. 

After you got done with your senior season of wrestling, did your high school have a decision on giving you a lot of money to come back for another four years of wrestling? 

He's doing nothing right now that points to him being a Cleveland Brown beyond next year. In fact, an argument can be made that he's regressing. 

[tiamat63]

3 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

After you got done with your senior season of wrestling, did your high school have a decision on giving you a lot of money to come back for another four years of wrestling? 

He's doing nothing right now that points to him being a Cleveland Brown beyond next year. In fact, an argument can be made that he's regressing. 

 I didn't wrestle beyond my sophomore year, but I understand where you're going.

 I just disagree on how we view "regression", or the argument that could be made.   Grant was solid in limited assignments last year, but he hasn't been up to the task when being asked to lift more weight.   I'm beginning to feel a lot of his tackling issues as well are when he's forced to come downhill from being back on a hash.   This was the same critique I had on Peppers in his early years when the Browns drafted him.   He did become a bit more of a reliable tackler middle of year 2, but it took time to get him to game speed and to make better angles a more routine part of his play.  

 Missing that 1st year really sets you back.   Year 3 is often understood as the one where players make "the jump", right now we're in a de-facto year two with Delpit.  Which is why I'm a bit slower to reach the "miss" label.  

 

 

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

On 10/29/2022 at 4:06 AM, Westside Steve said:

For those complaining I didn't really see anything political about this but I've sanitized it for your protection. Keep the politics to the political board.

WSS

My apologies. Honestly, I am not much into political arguments. I don't mind swapping an insult, but I don't find political squabbling of any interest.

I equated Haslam with a political candidate not because of his politics, but simply because I saw a video clip of him babbling. Fresh in my mind, I just blurted his name as my village idiot.

Sorry for crossing the streams.

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

On 10/10/2022 at 1:27 PM, Canton Dawg said:

The Browns won’t be making the playoffs because of the defense and boneheaded calls by the OC/HC.

With the toughest stretch of the schedule still to come, I don’t think our overpaid Pervert will make much of a difference.

They could still win the division, from a arithmetic standpoint.

Let's wait until I sing, er, I mean until the fat lady sings.

Tomorrow night is a new day.

Go Browns.

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

On 10/10/2022 at 1:27 PM, Canton Dawg said:

The Browns won’t be making the playoffs because of the defense and boneheaded calls by the OC/HC.

With the toughest stretch of the schedule still to come, I don’t think our overpaid Pervert will make much of a difference.

They could still win the division, from a arithmetic standpoint.

Let's wait until I sing, er, I mean until the fat lady sings.

Tomorrow night is a new day.

Go Browns.

[calfoxwc]

On 10/29/2022 at 8:05 AM, Flugel said:

That was a great read.  DePodesta was who Jonah Hill played in the movie Money Ball; and he was an incredible success in a Sport where the bigger payrolls (Goliath) beats (David) smaller payrolls.  The formula was way more compatible with baseball (onbase % leading to runs scored, etc). That said, they would go after guys with imperfections in he field or on the mound that traditional scouts for the bigger market payrolls would refrain from. There's a lot of "you gotta rob Peter to pay Paul" mentality in terms of what you'll give up to score runs or strike someone out. Loved that movie because the OWNER that couldn't beat the Yankees (or compete with them) in the ALCS the year before - had to cut payroll even more-so. After doing so, the FO there still made it to the playoffs after getting rid of their 3 biggest stars/highest paid players.

Believe it or not, DePodesta DID play college football in the Ivy League so I had some degree of hope he'd do some similar stuff with football and it would work.  I thought we were on our way as recently as the post season in January of 2021.  Not that long ago; but suddenly it feels like a decade ago. 

Fans always want to pick out their favorite symptom thinking the 1 change will right the ship; so they push for it like it's going to move the glacier this owner is steering his version of the Titanic at.  You brought up Baker and getting rid of him and adding a QB that was 4-12 the last time he played for an owner like Haslam.  I hope it's worth it because this franchise is only 1 more Message Therapy session gone wrong away from an extended period of the football fans are protesting today.  Don't worry folks, I'll agree symptoms like Joe Woods, Mike Priefer and personnel are painful. In the NFL's easiest place to lose a locker room - it's now happening to the 2020 Coach of the Year.  Fans will continue to argue whose Head they want from King Herrod-Haslam all the while refusing to see the problem is actually King Herrod-Haslam.  Not to worry, this Poseiden Adventure on Lake Erie has more sequels than Halloween and Friday the 13th put together.  The King of this Kingdom will fire some or all of the symptoms of his previous criteria-free hiring only to rinse and repeat the same thing.  Hopefully this time he'll at least have a GM in place before he hires the next Head Coach so their football philosophies have a better shot at being compatible than forced and fingers crossed. For that matter, I don't even know how compatible DePodesta and Berry are.  

I know we can't fire the owner; but before we choose the next enemy on this team or in the organization - we can all do a better job of digging deeper on what really is the problem.  Is it really only a symptom or 2 of the much bigger problem?  And about the Baker stuff, yeah hindsight tells us he wasn't the right #1 overall pick. Was he really as horrible in Cleveland as the finished product Carolina fans have gagged on?  He came to an 0-16 team and set the rookie QB record with 27 TD passes in only 13 starts(14 appearances) leading a team that was previously 1-31 to a 7-8-1 record. Even that year before he took the field - the team was 0-1-1 and losing to the Jets by 14 points before he led the Browns to a comeback victory.  I blame Baker for being too content and complacent after the promising start.  That said, I'm also going to swim against the current of popular opinion give this organization a great deal of credit for the final product Carolina is stuck with. Maybe the same Brian Daboll currently changing minds about Daniel Jones and previously unpopular 1st round draft prospect Josh Allen could have equipped him with the things he's done for the 2 guys with less success before Daboll's teachings.  That was moldable clay that became mold and mildew in Haslam's forever toxic kingdom. Ask yourself, would Josh Allen have been given the chance to do what he does best right here in Cleveland?  Tim Couch once had a 62 yard run as a rookie right before half against the Rams.  Chris Palmer sprinted toward his rookie QB with Couch thinking he'd be complimented for the toughness; but Palmer ripped him a new ass saying we're paying you to pass the ball and keep yourself healthy - not pretend you're a RB.  Big parts of Josh Allen's and Daniel Jones' game under Daboll is running the football especially when opportunities red carpet and reward it.  It can certainly be a big part of Watson's game as it was at Clemson and their National Championship, which kind of scared this organization from considering Watson for their #1 choice overall in 2017.  Now they we gave up this entire season + THREE 1st round draft picks to pay Watson a guaranteed salary of $230 million - all we have left is hope that the only massage therapist he will see the next 4 years is some big ugly bastard named Bruno Notouchami. 

In the meantime, all those that need to celebrate their "I told you so" about Baker can keep reminding us about what's going on in Carolina today while knuckleheads like me can say I was wrong about thinking that was a great choice at the time.  Understanding RB Saquon Barkley went #2 overall when the Browns drafted a better RB with its 2nd of 2 second round choices Nick Chubb only leaves the question - would Cleveland have ruined Josh Allen or withstood the growing pains Buffalo planned and accounted for in their development?  I remember when Jimmy Johnson almost gave up on Troy Aikman for Steve Walsh - Cleveland would have given up him for Joe Walsh....

 

Great points. It's a great question - would the Browns/Stef have ruined Josh Allen? Maybe also they might have ruined Mahomes?

    Maybe it's just me, but I don't see if the Browns had their first round draft picks back and never made the trade - Jordan Davis, the right qb in next year's draft, and an OL? or WR? in the third draft - one player doesn't equal three right players.

    even if watson does eventually play - it won't make the players who Johnson was referring to - want to win and love the game.

   Maybe it's like putting pig lipstick on a pig. Nothing changes - perhaps some players figure they should give up and go elsewhere, deja vu all over again.

   Or maybe not.

It was awesome to watch the squealers keep running into brick walls vs the Eagles with Jordan Davis added to their IDL.

   Watched a lot of football today - still hobbling with a well broken toe, no more big grey boot, but overdid it a lot.

  The Eagles, Chiefs and Bills look like the three strongest teams to me.

NOTE: btw, Christian McCaffrey got me 35 points today - by far the most this season. Different team.

[hoorta]

On 10/29/2022 at 8:05 AM, Flugel said:

That was a great read.  DePodesta was who Jonah Hill played in the movie Money Ball; and he was an incredible success in a Sport where the bigger payrolls (Goliath) beats (David) smaller payrolls.  The formula was way more compatible with baseball (onbase % leading to runs scored, etc). That said, they would go after guys with imperfections in he field or on the mound that traditional scouts for the bigger market payrolls would refrain from. There's a lot of "you gotta rob Peter to pay Paul" mentality in terms of what you'll give up to score runs or strike someone out. Loved that movie because the OWNER that couldn't beat the Yankees (or compete with them) in the ALCS the year before - had to cut payroll even more-so. After doing so, the FO there still made it to the playoffs after getting rid of their 3 biggest stars/highest paid players.

Believe it or not, DePodesta DID play college football in the Ivy League so I had some degree of hope he'd do some similar stuff with football and it would work.  I thought we were on our way as recently as the post season in January of 2021.  Not that long ago; but suddenly it feels like a decade ago. 

Fans always want to pick out their favorite symptom thinking the 1 change will right the ship; so they push for it like it's going to move the glacier this owner is steering his version of the Titanic at.  You brought up Baker and getting rid of him and adding a QB that was 4-12 the last time he played for an owner like Haslam.  I hope it's worth it because this franchise is only 1 more Message Therapy session gone wrong away from an extended period of the football fans are protesting today.  Don't worry folks, I'll agree symptoms like Joe Woods, Mike Priefer and personnel are painful. In the NFL's easiest place to lose a locker room - it's now happening to the 2020 Coach of the Year.  Fans will continue to argue whose Head they want from King Herrod-Haslam all the while refusing to see the problem is actually King Herrod-Haslam.  Not to worry, this Poseiden Adventure on Lake Erie has more sequels than Halloween and Friday the 13th put together.  The King of this Kingdom will fire some or all of the symptoms of his previous criteria-free hiring only to rinse and repeat the same thing.  Hopefully this time he'll at least have a GM in place before he hires the next Head Coach so their football philosophies have a better shot at being compatible than forced and fingers crossed. For that matter, I don't even know how compatible DePodesta and Berry are.  

I know we can't fire the owner; but before we choose the next enemy on this team or in the organization - we can all do a better job of digging deeper on what really is the problem.  Is it really only a symptom or 2 of the much bigger problem?  And about the Baker stuff, yeah hindsight tells us he wasn't the right #1 overall pick. Was he really as horrible in Cleveland as the finished product Carolina fans have gagged on?  He came to an 0-16 team and set the rookie QB record with 27 TD passes in only 13 starts(14 appearances) leading a team that was previously 1-31 to a 7-8-1 record. Even that year before he took the field - the team was 0-1-1 and losing to the Jets by 14 points before he led the Browns to a comeback victory.  I blame Baker for being too content and complacent after the promising start.  That said, I'm also going to swim against the current of popular opinion give this organization a great deal of credit for the final product Carolina is stuck with. Maybe the same Brian Daboll currently changing minds about Daniel Jones and previously unpopular 1st round draft prospect Josh Allen could have equipped him with the things he's done for the 2 guys with less success before Daboll's teachings.  That was moldable clay that became mold and mildew in Haslam's forever toxic kingdom. Ask yourself, would Josh Allen have been given the chance to do what he does best right here in Cleveland?  Tim Couch once had a 62 yard run as a rookie right before half against the Rams.  Chris Palmer sprinted toward his rookie QB with Couch thinking he'd be complimented for the toughness; but Palmer ripped him a new ass saying we're paying you to pass the ball and keep yourself healthy - not pretend you're a RB.  Big parts of Josh Allen's and Daniel Jones' game under Daboll is running the football especially when opportunities red carpet and reward it.  It can certainly be a big part of Watson's game as it was at Clemson and their National Championship, which kind of scared this organization from considering Watson for their #1 choice overall in 2017.  Now they we gave up this entire season + THREE 1st round draft picks to pay Watson a guaranteed salary of $230 million - all we have left is hope that the only massage therapist he will see the next 4 years is some big ugly bastard named Bruno Notouchami. 

In the meantime, all those that need to celebrate their "I told you so" about Baker can keep reminding us about what's going on in Carolina today while knuckleheads like me can say I was wrong about thinking that was a great choice at the time.  Understanding RB Saquon Barkley went #2 overall when the Browns drafted a better RB with its 2nd of 2 second round choices Nick Chubb only leaves the question - would Cleveland have ruined Josh Allen or withstood the growing pains Buffalo planned and accounted for in their development?  I remember when Jimmy Johnson almost gave up on Troy Aikman for Steve Walsh - Cleveland would have given up him for Joe Walsh....

 

I'm not going to respond to your novella Tom except to point out one thing- analytics in baseball and football are two different critters. Managers routinely bringing in a pitcher to get one batter out just because the analytics say so. 

45 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Great points. It's a great question - would the Browns/Stef have ruined Josh Allen? Maybe also they might have ruined Mahomes?

    Maybe it's just me, but I don't see if the Browns had their first round draft picks back and never made the trade - Jordan Davis, the right qb in next year's draft, and an OL? or WR? in the third draft - one player doesn't equal three right players.

    even if watson does eventually play - it won't make the players who Johnson was referring to - want to win and love the game.

   Maybe it's like putting pig lipstick on a pig. Nothing changes - perhaps some players figure they should give up and go elsewhere, deja vu all over again.

   Or maybe not.

It was awesome to watch the squealers keep running into brick walls vs the Eagles with Jordan Davis added to their IDL.

   Watched a lot of football today - still hobbling with a well broken toe, no more big grey boot, but overdid it a lot.

  The Eagles, Chiefs and Bills look like the three strongest teams to me.

NOTE: btw, Christian McCaffrey got me 35 points today - by far the most this season. Different team.

Oh I watched-for lack of anything better to watch- the satisfying demolition of the Squealers by the Eagles. Pickett did prove one thing- he's one tough dude, I was waiting for them to call out the cart to haul him off the field after he got buried a couple of times.  & yeah- the difference between the Eagles d-line and the Browns is night and day.   

BTW, we bitch at Brissett being a bum, but shit...  Hurts gets away throwing three freaking times to Brown who's double covered every time in the end zone. And Minka Fitzpatrick isn't exactly a stiff.  Allow me to repeat my mantra "I'd rather be lucky than good."  The Eagles not only appear to be lucky, but good on top of it. They have a mighty soft schedule too... Barring injury, pencil them into the playoffs now.   

[Korsou Dawg]

McCaffrey must be ecstatic to get out of there. Niners offense all the better with him on board. 

[Dutch Oven]

For you gambling types, what's the over/under on cal bringing up the Browns lost #13 overall pick and Jordan Davis for the rest of the season? 

[Flugel]

20 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 

 Yes and No.  Wills does enough where he won't hurt you more than he helps you.  He'll be an adequate player at a position where the Browns won't have to park bookend, Pro-Bowl tackles just to have a slightly above-average NFL offense.  Which is good, because that means less money needed to make the Oline function, provided you still have that interior wall providing the integrity for a passer like Deshaun that doesn't have an exaggerated pocket drop depth.   

Oh, and I'm still convinced there are times Jed is "thinking" about his footwork.  

He's getting beat right out of stance in his 3rd year.  He looked much better as a rookie to me. We can overthink the crap out of this. Jedrick Wills started all 16 games as a rookie and played every offensive snap in 13 of those contests.  In the playoffs against KC he injured his ankle on the 1st snap and missed the rest of that game.  His 2nd year was the year he missed games to the high ankle sprain and later attempted to play through it. 

If anyone has played OL throughout high school, college and now a few years at the NFL level - chances are he's been asked to play on both sides of Center. If you got to football camps, you don't say "hold on, I'm a RG only/RT only."  You play where they put you at.  The same thing applies if you're a junior on a varsity team with a very good returning starter at your position - sometimes the choice is you can start at the other guard or tackle spot right now (and go for the other one when you're a senior).  That happens more than you think even to guys that make 1st Team All County their senior year.  Kevin Shaffer played LT and RT for us (after playing LT his entire time in ATL but he was actually better when we switched him over to the right side). Orlando Brown has played RT and LT after playing LT exclusively at Oklahoma. He made the Pro Bowl at RT (he made some Pro Bowls at RT and I think he might have been named 2nd Team All Pro?).  That said, he wanted to return to LT and KC went after him with very good FA money to do that.  If a guy wants it bad enough, there's no way he should be confused with his footwork in his 3rd NFL season.

While I get your point about what we're paying the OTs here - we just signed a QB with a guaranteed contract of 230 million $.  I'm not comfortable with lazy and uninspired at LT (from a 6th overall pick).  DeShaun Watson is patient in the pocket and has been sacked because of that in spite of how fast and agile he is.  By the time he hits the field here, I want Wills to be the guy we need him to be. He's got all the tools and the best OL Coach in the league.  All that said, my biggest question from what I'm seeing is - does he have the inner chest/commitment level needed?  

Edited October 31, 2022 by Flugel

[lodilobo]

Bottom line....we are much worse this season than last season. The only change other than so called "improvements to the defense".....is Mayfield. I'm not saying he was great, but in his 4 seasons, he was a hell of a lot better than he looks now. I chalk it up to the Browns ruining another qb.  Yes...if they would have drafted Josh Allen, Mahomes or Lamar Jackson we would still be in the same boat. Just my opinion.

[Bob806]

7 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

Great points. It's a great question - would the Browns/Stef have ruined Josh Allen? Maybe also they might have ruined Mahomes?

    

Hue would have had Tyrod Taylor start over anybody. Who knows how Allen or Mahomes would have handled it ..my guess is they'd be fine. 

Mahomes & Allen are remarkably fantastic. 

[Dutch Oven]

Baker Mayfield was a high floor/low ceiling guy coming into the NFL.

He came into the NFL a very experienced college starter (I believe he had over 40 college starts) and played well in his rookie season, and played well in the second half of his third season, when Stefanski did a very good job scheming for him. Stefanski and the Browns front office did him no favors last season, I will admit. 

He is limited. When teams limit his ability to roll out on play action and hit his first option, he struggles. He has no elite physical or mental traits. At his best, he's a decent, but middle-of-the-pack starter, like a latter day Andy Dalton. 

He should never be mentioned in the same breath as Pat Mahomes or Josh Allen. If Mahomes and Allen were cars, they'd be Italian sports cars. Baker is a Toyota Corolla.