2023 Browns NFL Draft Prospects

[ballpeen]

14 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I give us maybe a 5% chance of moving up into the first round to go do something like that. I expect absolute crickets out of Berea on Thursday night.🦗🦗🦗🦗💩

The only way that happens is if we offer up more than draft picks.  We will need to jettison a good player to do so.  Chubb and 3rd might do it.

[Flugel]

5 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I agree, but if this class is as bad as projected, how many GMs are going to want to load up on extra picks this year?

 

You never know, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

Ok, so an un-named GM went on record saying this draft class is horrible during Poker Season.  Anyone wonder why it was important for that GM to do that?  What could he possibly gain from doing so?  

Healthy consumers don't become that by carelessly winging it.  Research and identifying what you need as well as who can give you that seems like a sensible way of doing things.  There's going to be teams in this draft that are going to get what they want and need.   There's a lot of good players in this draft for the teams that understand what the draft is all about.

Signing a ton of 1 year contracts in lieu of building through the draft could be a big reason this FO started off with an 11-5 record (largely from remaining personnel from previous regimes); then dropped to 9-8 before dropping to 7-10.  

We have some important needs that still need to be addressed; and there's players in this draft that can help us. That's the reality for the Browns in the basement of the AFC North.  Once upon a time I was in my 20s hearing people say you just gotta be patient and understand there's always "next year."  Now I'm 59 with a complete understanding that the adopted "next year" mentality has always prevented this franchise from "this year."  As a result, the Browns sport the worst winning percentage in the NFL since 1999 with .330.  Nothing is ever gonna change if you never consider "this year."   That's why we are what our record says we are all the time...

[tiamat63]

Quick summation of some other late to UDFA RBs I've watched. 

 

 Tavion Thomas, Utah - X pass. Might end up going the Rod Smith route though with a bit of a position switch? Fullbacks with utility still have a place in football. 

 Jordan Mims, Fresno - Fence.  Actually catches the ball well when it's outside his frame.  But his running style can be a bit inefficient.   Wouldn't hate him as a priority UDFA. 

 

 

 Hoping to have some time to knock out (most) of the rest of this class. 

[calfoxwc]

12 hours ago, ballpeen said:

The only way that happens is if we offer up more than draft picks.  We will need to jettison a good player to do so.  Chubb and 3rd might do it.

I'm afraid that would be an old Indians "take three steps back" to move one step forward.  Like the Browns did when they traded Paul Warfield to the Dolphins.....

https://dawgpounddaily.com › posts › browns-flashback-friday-when-art-modell-traded-3-future-all-pros

Browns Flashback Friday: When Art Modell traded 3 future All Pros

5 days agoThe Browns had two Pro Bowl wide receivers in Gary Collins (1965 and 1966) plus Paul Warfield, who had made it as a rookie in 1964. So, when Modell was offered a second-round draft pick in...

https://247sports.com › nfl › cleveland-browns › Board › 105323 › Contents › The-worst-Trade-in-Browns-History-still-is-WarfieldPhipps-70576898

The worst Trade in Browns History still is Warfield/Phipps

In 1970, he was traded to the Miami Dolphins for a draft pick which the Browns used on Purdue University All-American quarterback Mike Phipps. The trade is considered one of the most lopsided...

[ballpeen]

I was just pointing out.  Not saying I would want that.

[ballpeen]

10 hours ago, Flugel said:

Ok, so an un-named GM went on record saying this draft class is horrible during Poker Season.  Anyone wonder why it was important for that GM to do that?  What could he possibly gain from doing so?  

Healthy consumers don't become that by carelessly winging it.  Research and identifying what you need as well as who can give you that seems like a sensible way of doing things.  There's going to be teams in this draft that are going to get what they want and need.   There's a lot of good players in this draft for the teams that understand what the draft is all about.

Signing a ton of 1 year contracts in lieu of building through the draft could be a big reason this FO started off with an 11-5 record (largely from remaining personnel from previous regimes); then dropped to 9-8 before dropping to 7-10.  

We have some important needs that still need to be addressed; and there's players in this draft that can help us. That's the reality for the Browns in the basement of the AFC North.  Once upon a time I was in my 20s hearing people say you just gotta be patient and understand there's always "next year."  Now I'm 59 with a complete understanding that the adopted "next year" mentality has always prevented this franchise from "this year."  As a result, the Browns sport the worst winning percentage in the NFL since 1999 with .330.  Nothing is ever gonna change if you never consider "this year."   That's why we are what our record says we are all the time...

I did say IF this class is weak.  I am not saying it is  or isn't.  I did read somewhere some NFL insider(maybe the same guy) said there were only 12 plyers with 1st round grades..take it for what it's worth.

[Flugel]

37 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

I did say IF this class is weak.  I am not saying it is  or isn't.  I did read somewhere some NFL insider(maybe the same guy) said there were only 12 plyers with 1st round grades..take it for what it's worth.

You were fine. I didn't have a problem with what you said believe it or not.  I just thought it was a great opportunity to talk about stuff that was shared the other day about a GM saying this draft class sucks.  I don't think the experts are always right; and there's a lot of poker being played via the comments some GMs and scouts purposely share.  I just wanted to make it known they have no freakin way of knowing who belongs where in the draft or what will come of various guys.  Last year's Mr Irrelevant (final pick of round 7) was QB Brock Purdy who won all his regular season starts and a playoff game.   A guy like Tyreek Hill didn't get drafted until round 5.  Teams gotta do their research.

[TexasAg1969]

6 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

I'm afraid that would be an old Indians "take three steps back" to move one step forward.  Like the Browns did when they traded Paul Warfield to the Dolphins.....

https://dawgpounddaily.com › posts › browns-flashback-friday-when-art-modell-traded-3-future-all-pros

Browns Flashback Friday: When Art Modell traded 3 future All Pros

5 days agoThe Browns had two Pro Bowl wide receivers in Gary Collins (1965 and 1966) plus Paul Warfield, who had made it as a rookie in 1964. So, when Modell was offered a second-round draft pick in...

https://247sports.com › nfl › cleveland-browns › Board › 105323 › Contents › The-worst-Trade-in-Browns-History-still-is-WarfieldPhipps-70576898

The worst Trade in Browns History still is Warfield/Phipps

In 1970, he was traded to the Miami Dolphins for a draft pick which the Browns used on Purdue University All-American quarterback Mike Phipps. The trade is considered one of the most lopsided...

I totally agree. Trading away Chubb would be committing Browns suicide and the end of the franchise IMO.

[ballpeen]

I don't think it would be the end of the franchise.  It wouldn't be popular.  I'll give you that.

[Flugel]

10 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I totally agree. Trading away Chubb would be committing Browns suicide and the end of the franchise IMO.

If we traded him away for the next Mike Phipps/equivalent that would be a disaster. Hard to believe the Browns drafted Austin Corbett (a tackle projected to play guard/center) about 4 draft slots ahead of where they selected Chubb in round 2.  Chubb is a quiet leader with an un-matched work ethic which shows up in his yards per carry and yards after 1st contact.  There's little draftniks on the OBR with the football backgrounds of playing the Madden video game that would roll their eyes at what Chubb means with a "get over it - he's a RB which = replaceable in today's NFL."  They'd be tripping over each other to remind me the Browns actually made Corbett a bigger priority to which I'd ask - is Austin on his 4th or 5th team today?

Just out of curiosity, what did the Browns ever give to Joe Thomas? What REAL QB did they give him to protect in his 10 year career? Summary: they drafted a 1st ballot HOF Left Tackle to protect a franchise QB they were never capable of drafting.  THAT is the Cleveland Browns everybody in the AFC North laughs at. Love him or hate him, the Browns decided to trade a lot for a proven QB with elite skills.  That's fine; but is everybody comfortable with our Left Tackle in pass pro on the blind side of the 230 million $ QB?  If they leave the position as is, they'll probably have to use a TE to the Left of him staying in to pass protect in lieu of giving the QB another prong of attack downfield.  

Competing with the last few sentences above - we have 4 LBers coming off IR because of the FO neglect to the DT position.  Having said that, they added Tomlinson to improve the DT position.  They also added 2 other guys with the equivalent NFL accomplishments to that of Elliott and Togiai.  IMO, Winfrey seems like a bigger candidate for the workload in the rotation than Hurst or Hill.  Badass needed here!!!!  We need a difference maker up-front.

We DO have a Pro Bowl Guard (Wyatt Teller) that offers proven production for today over the crapshoot that often requires development/growing pains at the position. Then the Browns have to come up with another guy or maybe a future package of picks.  I say that knowing Michael Dunn was re-signed with quality experience as a fill-in starter for Bitonio and at other positions here.  I've always liked this guy.  Last year, he also gave us reps as a TE lining up to the right of Conklin's back-up at RT.  I don't think it would be the big drop-off many would probably think it is; but I'm not always right either.

The Browns have to rob Peter to pay Paul.  The problem with that is if Paul doesn't get paid - someone's getting fired!!!  

 

[mjp28]

5 hours ago, Flugel said:

....... The Browns have to rob Peter to pay Paul.  The problem with that is if Paul doesn't get paid - someone's getting fired!!! 

Yes .... this really seems like a new but getting more well entrenched with each passing decade since when our Cleveland BROWNS got taken from our great city / region / NE Ohio and from generations of true die-hard BROWNS Backer fans both here and abroad. 

That now seems to be the ongoing Cleveland BROWNS story since the glory exciting Bernie Kosar years.   And going back through the Kardiac Kids era Brian Sipe, decades of good Cleveland running backs.   Going back to and earlier than the 1964 Championship BROWNS when the greatest  JIM BROWN came to Cleveland.  And back to the great Otto Graham and the beginnings of our NFL franchise.  

Since the rather haphazard restart (in many opinions) of the 1999 BROWNS it seems like the club can't get the combination of franchise quarterback,  head coach, FO and even the club ownership itself   all   together on the same page.

Why ?

Somehow they have to find the right combination to get things going successfully in the right direction.  [ My opinion,  normally these things have to start at the top. ]  

But right now there are a lot of key pieces in place great RBs, some good defensive pieces and  the big main piece a potential franchise quarterback ready to finally take over in Game 1.

Hopefully the Peter / Paul situation is well taken care of and time ro just play some football.       🏈

GO BROWNS !

[TexasAg1969]

On 4/8/2023 at 8:32 AM, tiamat63 said:

 

Current watch(ed) list as of this morning.

 

RB - Deneric Prince - X UDFA
         Roschon Johnson  - * Day 3 (early?)
         Zach Evans - X Day 3 (later)
        Kendre Miller - X Day 3
        Sean Tucker - * Late Day 2, early Day 3?  

 edit:   Adding Devon Archane per the last conversation

         Devon Archane - * Day 3 

       

  

X = pass

* = Willing to draft

 

 

So anybody else added to that list for day 2 & 3 (besides me moving Achane up to day 2 LOL)?

 

Plus just out of curiosity I'm watching to see where Army's DE Carter goes plus two other A&M players likely going tonight.

[tiamat63]

14 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

So anybody else added to that list for day 2 & 3 (besides me moving Achane up to day 2 LOL)?

 

Plus just out of curiosity I'm watching to see where Army's DE Carter goes plus two other A&M players likely going tonight.

Both likely going somewhere today.

[TexasAg1969]

Well today we need to watch early because we have #'s 111, 126, 140 and 142 through the 5th round. Will we ever use any draft capital to move up now or to create more for 2024?

Ones to watch for besides tia's RBs and Army Edge Andre Carter II that CBS rates #71 overall. Add A&M's Safety Antonio Johnson rated #70. Alabama CB Eli Ricks rated #93.

EDIT: We have the 9th pick today (#111 overall) to start.

[tiamat63]

Initial impressions after digging like Indiana Jones for good film.

 

- Bryce Young is going to struggle in Carolina.  His height is a real problem, whether pundits want to admit that or not.  The bottom 3 Oline makes that issue even more magnified.    HIs rookie year might end up getting him smoked like it did Joey Burrow, although for two reasons as opposed to just one in Cincy.   

 

- I have hopes for Ika.  Despite being 37lbs heavier, he ran a 10 yard split only 1/10th of a second slower than Tommy Togiai.  He's also over an inch taller and 1.5 inches greater in arm length.   Which, for reasons I can't seem to grasp why writers from DPD or DPN can't see, are the primary reasons why TT did good against a team like the Ravens, but struggled against teams like Atlanta.  Pretty sad given that these are advertisement based and profit driven publications. Anywho....

 

- Ceddy's route selection and body structure just looks like Michael Thomas.  And I posted in the draft thread, he's within half an inch on height, arm length, hand size and they're 2lbs difference in weight.  I get this pick entirely, and he doesn't have to start right away.  His footwork isn't a polished as MT's was, but if he's willing to put in the work he can absolutely get there.  

- Dawand has to keep his weight in check and it's really that simple.  But bringing on a body of that size supports my belief of this team moving away from using the outside zone as the running structure to setup our passing offense, and instead shifting more to the more natural vertical zone that gun based offenses are.   This is how teams that sprinkle in those RPO designs tend to run their games as well beyond simple sight adjusts.  You're not going to bring in a 375lb RT and have him run zone stretch.     That's actually my biggest take away from this selection.   It's good to see Buckeyes stay home, and DJ is in good hands with coach Callahan.   He has to learn how to be a pro now and to take the utmost care of his body shape.

 

- Isiah Mcguire.  I've watched all of Mizzou vs Georgia.  While the JawJaw OT situation isn't good, I like this pick and think more people need to come around on him.  He's got great wingspan, leg drive, pad level and fundamentals.  I swear the Mizzou Dline has been turning out consistent players for years, even if they're unspectacular or not the most twitchy athletes.    Which is IM in a nutshell.  Good first step, not elite.  Not incredibly athletic getting around the edge, but his hand usage and feet will make him a decent pro who won't be a liability.    He actually shows traits and regular reps that I wanted to see from Alex Wrights tape while at UAB.    And this front office has clearly understood, in a very short amount of time, that they reached rather far for Wright.   McGuire has a better athletic profile, better tape, has received better coaching and was a more productive collegiate player against better competition than Wright was.   Bonus, Mcguire was taken just outside the top 125 players.  That's good draft value.     

 He isn't dynamic, and I'm fine with that.  Putting an above average edge across from Myles while ignoring the rest of the Dline has produced nil results.   Having an elite edge rusher paired with a quality defensive line simple produces a better result from top to bottom, left to right.   I now expect this dline to generate pressure across the entirety of the front as opposed to just the edge.

 

- DTR is DTR.  Started a ton of games in college, which is what you want to see in a QB (so to speak) has some physical tools but played under Chip Kelly.  Not exactly a developer of pro QB talent.    But he doesn't look like Pat White, Jeremiah Masoli or Darron Thomas.   Basically, there's a chance he could stick around in the NFL as a backup for some time.  

 

- Wypler is an underacheiver with the physical tools as an athlete, but lacks more long-term snaps at center.  He pretty much took over for the Bucks just under 2 years ago.  He struggled the first half of that season with bad snaps alone.  Not the first time tOSU has done that - did it with Doug Datish back in the day as well when he kicked inside to Center after playing LT for a few seasons.   Moldable clay going to the best OL coach in the NFL.   If this pick ends up being anything at all, then that's just a cherry on top.   Signals that Nick Harris is gone though.    Between Pocic, Deaton and now Wypler, our average starting C height is 6'3 and change.   For anyone keeping track, that's pretty god damn tall for the position.  So it's clear these staff likes centers with arm length.  

 

 

 I have a lot of film to go over from everyone after Ika.   So I'll be back around this time next week to update this thread.

 

 

 

 

[Dutch Oven]

8 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Initial impressions after digging like Indiana Jones for good film.

 

- Bryce Young is going to struggle in Carolina.  His height is a real problem, whether pundits want to admit that or not.  The bottom 3 Oline makes that issue even more magnified.    HIs rookie year might end up getting him smoked like it did Joey Burrow, although for two reasons as opposed to just one in Cincy.   

Not only is Young short, he's slight. Man, I would really struggle to take such a small QB this high.

 

- I have hopes for Ika.  Despite being 37lbs heavier, he ran a 10 yard split only 1/10th of a second slower than Tommy Togiai.  He's also over an inch taller and 1.5 inches greater in arm length.   Which, for reasons I can't seem to grasp why writers from DPD or DPN can't see, are the primary reasons why TT did good against a team like the Ravens, but struggled against teams like Atlanta.  Pretty sad given that these are advertisement based and profit driven publications. Anywho....

Is Danny Shelton a lazy comparison? Because he's kind of who I see with Ika. (Which where Ika was taken, is not an insult. Shelton shouldn't have been taken as high as he was, but in the 3rd round? I'm ok with it)

 

- Ceddy's route selection and body structure just looks like Michael Thomas.  And I posted in the draft thread, he's within half an inch on height, arm length, hand size and they're 2lbs difference in weight.  I get this pick entirely, and he doesn't have to start right away.  His footwork isn't a polished as MT's was, but if he's willing to put in the work he can absolutely get there.  

While DPJ isn't what most would think of as a big, physical WR, on the Browns I guess he's the closest thing we have. I don't think the Browns are going to extend him, so my first reaction to Tillman getting drafted was "Well, there's your replacement for DPJ after next season ends". 

- Dawand has to keep his weight in check and it's really that simple.  But bringing on a body of that size supports my belief of this team moving away from using the outside zone as the running structure to setup our passing offense, and instead shifting more to the more natural vertical zone that gun based offenses are.   This is how teams that sprinkle in those RPO designs tend to run their games as well beyond simple sight adjusts.  You're not going to bring in a 375lb RT and have him run zone stretch.     That's actually my biggest take away from this selection.   It's good to see Buckeyes stay home, and DJ is in good hands with coach Callahan.   He has to learn how to be a pro now and to take the utmost care of his body shape.

I was really surprised to see a team that runs zone stretch take such a monster in Jones, so what you are thinking makes a lot of sense. This pick makes me a little anxious, 375lb OLinemen often become 400lb+ roster cuts.

 

- Isiah Mcguire.  I've watched all of Mizzou vs Georgia.  While the JawJaw OT situation isn't good, I like this pick and think more people need to come around on him.  He's got great wingspan, leg drive, pad level and fundamentals.  I swear the Mizzou Dline has been turning out consistent players for years, even if they're unspectacular or not the most twitchy athletes.    Which is IM in a nutshell.  Good first step, not elite.  Not incredibly athletic getting around the edge, but his hand usage and feet will make him a decent pro who won't be a liability.    He actually shows traits and regular reps that I wanted to see from Alex Wrights tape while at UAB.    And this front office has clearly understood, in a very short amount of time, that they reached rather far for Wright.   McGuire has a better athletic profile, better tape, has received better coaching and was a more productive collegiate player against better competition than Wright was.   Bonus, Mcguire was taken just outside the top 125 players.  That's good draft value.     

 He isn't dynamic, and I'm fine with that.  Putting an above average edge across from Myles while ignoring the rest of the Dline has produced nil results.   Having an elite edge rusher paired with a quality defensive line simple produces a better result from top to bottom, left to right.   I now expect this dline to generate pressure across the entirety of the front as opposed to just the edge.

Considering where he was chosen, he might be my favorite value pick of the Browns draft. As you said, he isn't dynamic, but he just seems like a guy who could be a solid, does everything decent type of players. Maybe a Jaball Sheard-type player. 

 

[Flugel]

21 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

 

Well done Dutch and Tia!  I'm very intrigued by McGuire.  If I ever get done with the Warden's to do list today - I'm gonna check out some of his highlights.  As you were... 

[tiamat63]

17 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

 

 I won't call the Danny to Ika comparison lazy, but they're not quite the same player. Ika is taller, a faster 10 yard split and has a bit longer arms.    They're both of islander descent, played in the pac/big 12 country and are IDL.  

 It's amazing how that Danny picked helped to finalize the direction of my current philosophy on drafting IDL though. 

 

Jabaal isn't a bad profile for McGuire in terms of the level I'd love to see him at. Strong set on the edge, can net you 8-9 sacks a year and won't be crazy expensive to resign.   Trey Hendrickson has Hubbard on the other end, that's what i want for Myles. 

[gumby73]

 Division draft hauls... 

As a whole, the AFC North had just four players with average athletic traits..

One in the poor category (red).

A whopping 20 players have RAS scores rated as great to elite are coming to the division in 2023.

 

 

 

 

@SdBacker80 Rats claimed our Pirate RB Keaton Mitchell... It Sucks!.. Arrrgh'd

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

 I won't call the Danny to Ika comparison lazy, but they're not quite the same player. Ika is taller, a faster 10 yard split and has a bit longer arms.    They're both of islander descent, played in the pac/big 12 country and are IDL.  

 It's amazing how that Danny picked helped to finalize the direction of my current philosophy on drafting IDL though. 

 

Jabaal isn't a bad profile for McGuire in terms of the level I'd love to see him at. Strong set on the edge, can net you 8-9 sacks a year and won't be crazy expensive to resign.   Trey Hendrickson has Hubbard on the other end, that's what i want for Myles. 

I added these McGuire highlights in another thread.  This guy looks very underrated coming out of the SEC where there's not a lot of easy match-ups.  Even Vandy has had decent help on the edge before they went to the portal to transfer to better SEC teams.  I FREAKIN hate that portal crap. In that RAS stuff @gumby73 just shared, he's pretty impressive for a 4th round pick...

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Flugel

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

On 4/27/2023 at 5:28 AM, ballpeen said:

I don't think it would be the end of the franchise.  It wouldn't be popular.  I'll give you that.

Yes, God knows we don't want to jeopardize our dynamic, winning ways.

If Stefanski coachedbthe 76 Steelers the Brownsnwould have gone to the Superbowl, 4 times.

[TexasAg1969]

23 hours ago, Flugel said:

Well done Dutch and Tia!  I'm very intrigued by McGuire.  If I ever get done with the Warden's to do list today - I'm gonna check out some of his highlights.  As you were... 

Flug's last conversation with the warden didn't go so well, thus the list.

 

[Unsympathetic]

On 4/30/2023 at 1:02 PM, tiamat63 said:

Dawand has to keep his weight in check and it's really that simple.

I hope Dawand accepts that he needs to put in the work if he wants to get where he thinks he already is. Per Menace2Sports [that's the daily podcast of the guy who was Urban's WR coach & still has connections], the last year inside the Woody, to describe Dawand as entitled is an understatement. 

Here's betting they put a fine in his contract for every day he's overweight..

[tiamat63]

On 5/3/2023 at 11:47 AM, Unsympathetic said:

I hope Dawand accepts that he needs to put in the work if he wants to get where he thinks he already is. Per Menace2Sports [that's the daily podcast of the guy who was Urban's WR coach & still has connections], the last year inside the Woody, to describe Dawand as entitled is an understatement. 

Here's betting they put a fine in his contract for every day he's overweight..

 

 Didn't have time to rebuttal the last couple days, here's my thought(s)

 I take what Zach Smith says lightly.  The things Dawand had to work on most from 2021 into the 2022 off-season, weight, hand strike timing and placement, he made improvements on from the previous year.  Now, he didn't face someone as good as Hutchinson. 

 But he did face Van Ness (limited snaps), Herbig & Foskey.  Sadly no Nolan Smith, that would have really helped with an assessment.  But all 3 were drafted, so the issues he had to previously overcome now have a recent history of being addressed. 

 I'm still cautiously optimistic though. 

 

 

[tiamat63]

Re: Bryce Young

 

 This is him standing next to Brian Burns, who checks in at 6'4 and 3/4.   Bryce will be playing behind an Oline that averages 6'4.   I'm no height supremacist... But gawd damn.

 

 

[Dutch Oven]

[Unsympathetic]

PSU's Sean Clifford had the same career "length" as Bennett -- arrive at Penn State in 2017, graduate in 2022.

 

[tiamat63]

 This is as good a place to put this.  I went back to watch Isiah Mcguire against Georgia again, except this time I decided to pay close attention to the Steelers 1st round draft pick - LT Broderick Jones.   

 

 Let's begin.  

 This attempt at a vertical kick-step from his set reminded me of another short-lived LT the Browns brought in for a 2nd shot at an NFL career - Greg Robinson from Auburn.  Originally drafted by the Rams high in the 1st round.   And much like Robinson, Jones gets out of his stance WAY too high and almost 'bounces'.  There is no security, timing or anchor in his footwork.    As a result, when contact gets to him quickly, he struggles to anchor, redirect, basically anything beyond just win by being bigger, stronger and a decent athlete.  Or in some cases... hold. 

 I had this very conversation with our departed Tour, you can reference that here....

 

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 After the initial bounce step, which is what I'm going to call it, BDJ is still high on the front of his feet and leaning too strongly into contact.   Beyond coaching, my first question is arm length?  I ask that because I've spoken about McGuire's length on the edge.   Quick google search from combine measurements show that isn't the case - he's just late and bad to initial strike.  

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 Big no-no.  Lowering your head into contact on the edge gets you fucked more often than not.  This looks and plays like somebody throwing their weight and strength into a blocking sled more than an edge rusher.    The biggest issue here, apart from BDJ's eyes being down and away from his target, is that his footwork and weight distribution sets him up for total failure.  

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Because his weight is so far forward away from his base, and he's on the front of his feet, McGuire using his arms to extend himself away from BDJ's intimal contact means he's lost any chance at locking and turning him out of the B gap, but Mcguire's control severely limits any jump cut for the RB to win the edge without Isiah disengaging and possibly getting a TFL.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 RB tries to bounce this to the frontside C gap (edge), but the playside overhang has driven down to the LOS and Mcguire has kept his outside shoulder free enough to protect the DB from being beaten to his inside shoulder.

 This is, from the standpoint of watching good Oline play.... REALLY fucking bad.  

There's more from this game, a lot more.  And it was there on just about every snap, 1st - 4th qtr.

 

 

 

Later on we got a double pull against a closed end to the boundary.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Washington (TE) is going to throw an X (downblock) on Mcguire, the closed end.  To clarify for anyone who isn't versed in the language, 'closed' end means your DE won't be on the edge outside of either the OT or the TE.  He'll be either in a gap or 'heads up' between a 4-4i technique.  

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Like the caption says, no edge to kick out so you're going to turn your eyes back inside to cutoff any pursuit.  You're running to the boundary, so you want to create the alley for the runner to work in narrow space and dance.  Can't run laterally with the lack of space.  BDJ eyes the SAM (front side) backer and should engage once he clears the X block.

 

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Only he doesn't do that.   His footwork and discpline stay sloppy, so now the frontside backer takes the free gift by going under BDJ's inside shoulder, and effectively 'under' the pull to get a big TFL.

 

 

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It looks a ton worse from the sky cam.

The bounce step makes getting negative from the line SUPER easy.  Which, hey, that's neat I suppose.   The eyes are a big tell here.  You see BDJ get to clear Washington on the downblock, he's looking for work on the edge coming outside to in... which is the correct thing to do.

 

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As he clears, it's pretty obvious who is target is.  Again, running to the boundary, cut off ANY frontside support. LB's have to hit their landmarks, so create a traffic jam when they under pursue.  Let your RB win the edge quickly.

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- Completely losses his footwork.  By that I mean he's once again playing and finishing high, not pacing his steps from his block clear to his target.   Damn lucky he didn't draw a holding call here either.

 

 

 One more for the road, just a bit later in the game.  Line cam from a straight drop in pass pro on a 3rd and 13 against Mcguire.  

 

 Like I said above, I hate this kids first step into a non-existent vertical kick step.  

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 Mcguire is already even, BDJ hasn't landed a strike let alone a quality one.    His feet are a mess and he's asking to be beaten back inside by any edge who is lined up from a 7-9tech.

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 His first punch is... anything but.   The response to speed is to wrap at the shoulders.  His response to strength is to shock without any anchor and hope the target doesn't use technique to re-win the rep.

 Ignore the part in the caption about the "below average arm length".  It isn't, which makes his all the more unforgiveable from a coaching standpoint.   It is below average arm extension though, which is much more accurate and fitting.  

 

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Clear hold high, around the neck, while Mcquire is extended and in a position to affect the throw or better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Outside of some national games I skimmed, and then the game vs the Bucks on NYE where I was WAY too hammered to watch him at a fast pace, I was curious how Pittsburgh felt they had addressed and possibly fixed their protection issues via draft.  Short answer - they didn't.   At least, not at LT they didn't.    @Vagitron, you might be most interested in this bit, per our last conversation.

 In fact, Broderick is one of the more questionable picks I've seen from that franchise in some time.   Right up there with another Georgia alum - Jarvis Jones.   Strange, considering I'll give praise to where it's earned regardless of team.   And the Steelers have a history of quality picks the last 20 years.  

 If this was a pick CLE made, even with a player going in the hands of Coach Callahan, I'd be pissed.  Everything I've watched so far is a testament to combine numbers, which weren't all that great, and the hype from playing on those Georgia squads.  A team with some serious flaws on their Oline and secondary, who was VERY fortunate to win a natty let alone repeat.  

 

 

   I rarely bury anyone before they're dead, but this kid needs time and a fuck ton of coaching. But I feel good about this pick, from the perspective of a Browns fan wondering if their rival truly improved.        Jones will struggle with Myles quickness, he'll struggle (like he did above) with Mcguire's wingspan, and he'll struggle with Smith's bull rush.    I do recognize that Coach Meyer is a pretty decent professional (Oline coach for PIT), but he has his hands full with this task.  A rookie off-season, while you're attempting to learn the playbook, catch up to NFL speed, digest language and having to rebuild your technique from the ground up is not a recipe for early success.      To me, what I'm finding makes the Darnell Washington pick make even more sense - you brought in a teammate who has spent a lot of reps giving this man chips and pass pro help.   If BDJ is tasked to start game 1, he's going to need every bit of that.  Because it's a net win at this particular position matchup for Cleveland during the 1st meeting at minimum.   

 

 

 

[Korsou Dawg]

@tiamat63 so, in short, you are saying McGuire is a great pick, and Browns win the Superbowl.

[tiamat63]

3 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

@tiamat63 so, in short, you are saying McGuire is a great pick, and Browns win the Superbowl.

 

 McGuire is a solid pick, not a great one.   And given where we got him at, to quote Robert Randolph - "ain't nothing wrong with that".   

 

 I was just taken back by the quality (lack of at times) from Oline play in the SEC this year.  Even Darnell Wright (OT, Tennessee) has been a bit 'meh', like most tackles coming from any flavor of Air Raid.