Woods & Watson

[FY56]

9 hours ago, syd said:

oh wow you sure told me Bet you were to busy on national hate day along with nickers and die hard to say something earlier to me 

Yeah, that must have been it.

[tiamat63]

14 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

 

Schwartz was not employed in those drafts. From what I have heard, he is a 'D-line whisperer.' As Tia has said before, he is practically certain to be involved in the draft this year.  

 

Happy to concede to your assessment. My point was slightly different though: Namely that the picks of recent years haven't been all bad, and a rotation can be built with them and value for money additions. 

 I appreciate that, although it isn't so much a matter of concession really. I get where you're going and yes, rotation can be built on value.   The key is not buying cheap for the sake of buying cheap, but to buy low where you think someone is underrated.  I'd argue this front office has gone both the former and latter the last couple seasons on the defensive front 7 with oddly contrasting results.  

 Alex Wright wasn't a "good" pick by any stretch. Which brings up a further concern I'll address below...

 

14 hours ago, Orion said:

But is that saying much?

 Yes and no.  It says this front office isn't afraid to make multiple positions picks with mid to late round resources to address depth concerns.  But it does tell me that they might put a bit too much emphasis on RAS at times and overdraft players ahead of where they would project both from tape and consensus.    Alex Wright is a prime example.  He's a monster athlete and little else who was taken just outside the top 75 picks.   He was then proceeded to be outplayed by a late 7th round pick in Isiah Thomas who was much more fundamentally sound edge. 

Tommy Togiai is a minor example as well. His bench was impressive. Not much else.  I watched every game of his, being the Buckeye I am, and he was taken at least a full round too high.   Over-valuation is a real problem. 

 Meanwhile Travis Jones was taken just several picks before.  In my mind I would hope that Berry and Co. Wouldn't have been so enamored with Wright that they would have ignored potentially sacrificing a future late round pick in order to move up and address starting needs at IDL before depth elsewhere.   Yes, yes I know about BPA.  But if the argument was Wright > Jones as BPA, then the early returns indicate how we grade and prioritize positions and players is ..... Off. 

 

Our best value picks on the edge have been our latest round(IT)   our worst have been our earliest (Wright).   Our best IDL pick has been our latest round (Perrion) while our worst has been our highest taken (Elliot).    Again, I circle back to how the Browns grade, project then value these players.

[SdBacker80]

I believe there was a plan but a series of unfortunate happenings derailed anything that could happen.

let’s see if…
If Myles wasn’t a knucklehead.  If Clowney wasn’t a lazy unmotivated turd. If Perrion wasn’t immature.  If we kicked Myles inside for a series or two. 

I believe we started to hear Wrights name called a little more at the end of the season.  Thomas is a late round lottery pick and Bryan had his flaws.

We drafted poorly with Tommy and Elliot but Neither were Day 1 or second round picks…you all want to invest in the position there…I get it. At what expense do we take away from other positions?  2020 We needed a Tackle, 2021 we needed a Corner (our other corner was never healthy), we needed a playmaker like JOK.

DE, DT, DT, DE definitely not our strongest unit but Not for lack of investment.  We had some missed here.  It Looks like we were hoping for monster years and scheme creativity with guys like Myles and Clowney and then rotational pieces filling in on a limited basis at other spots.

You can’t have it all…salary cap restricts it…some guys don’t want to come to a Cleveland…some other positions warrant attention as well.  Buffalo went 13-3 with holes all over their secondary.  The Giants made the playoffs with a very suspect WR core, the 49ers made the NFC championship Championship game with a 7th round QB.  The bengals made due with a patchwork Oline, can I stop? 
 

Why not Tariq Woolen in 5th instead of Martin Emmerson in the 3rd.  We could have added another piece earlier in a position group that needed it.  

 

 

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

 If we kicked Myles inside for a series or two. 

 I never understood the casual fans obsession with this idea.   But it screams of someone who has only ever played Madden.   Reminds me of a conversation I had with our resident Chiefs troll when he bragged that Coach Spaggs was moving Chris Jones to play an edge spot on early downs.   Ended up being a massive liability.

 

 

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

You all want to invest in the position there…I get it. At what expense do we take away from other positions?

I believe most of us (ok, me) asked for investment at any point, not top 60.    The Dline has been slowly deteriorating for a few years and Malik McDowells departure turned it into a wasteland.   This is the natural order of things - finding balance.   As I've said, the Browns front office went so far in one direction by over-investing in the secondary, that they all but completely ignored the defensive front.   This wasn't unseen either.  

 

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

 

 

DE, DT, DT, DE definitely not our strongest unit but Not for lack of investment.  

 Not only is the Dline (besides Myles) our weakest unit, it is one of the very weakest position groups of any team in the entire NFL.   And it's actually not even really all that close.    So.... yeah, it's because of a lack of investment.   Let me try this. 

 The secondary has two 1st round CB's, a 2nd round DB, a high-target FA DB, (soon to be gone) and a top 75 CB.  You have a coach coming in that has tools to work with because there's talent on the backend.   

 You have a defensive coach coming in looking at cutting 3 players on the Dline alone who were all starters throughout the season.  With the only saving grace for the others being that they're cheap rookies the front office feels hold SOME promise.  Meaning that when the drawing board is hit, they'll be the first group to talk about fixing.         You see the difference here now...   

The Browns IDL has had ONE top 75 pick spent on it since (and including) 2016.

  Let that sink in.   Because that means the Browns have spent more on premium DBs the last 2 years,  than the entire IDL in the past 8.   In 2020 and 2021, plus bringing in Johnny J, sure it was justified.   You can't walk out Karl Joesph with Andrew Sendejo and be like "yeah, we're good".   That was the worst graded safety duo in the entire NFL for 2020.     Which means the Browns hold that title for 2 different position groups in two different years in the last 3 seasons alone.    That is a disgusting imbalance.   To be fair, Delpit was drafted in 2020 and would have seen a ton of snaps if not for his injury.     Still.... would Grant have rescued that group had he started? Hell no, he likely would have been even more of a liability than both those two.  

 

 Investment AND development.   You don't have to invest if players step forward.   But in 2021, Jordan Elliot and Tommy Togiai had their doors blown off so bad, it would take a level of spin to think they would be even average NFL starters the next (this past) season that I can't even imagine.     Another issue I have with this front office, their harmful dedication to their picks even when not panning out.   So when there is no sign of development, you have to circle back to investment.  This goes double when your initial investment was looking at tweener players in hopes of finding late round gold under rocks anyway.  

 

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

 

We had some missed here.  It Looks like we were hoping for monster years and scheme creativity with guys like Myles and Clowney and then rotational pieces filling in on a limited basis at other spots.

 Hope isn't a strategy.  The Front office believed "their guys" were ready.   Unfortunately their belief was delusion... at best.  

 

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

You can’t have it all…salary cap restricts it…some guys don’t want to come to a Cleveland…some other positions warrant attention as well.  

 

This is correct.  But you can't have foundational flaws in your roster. Period.   You can't field bottom tier NFL units and not expect to pay the price for it.    But I look at the top teams in the AFC and I don't see entire units that are bottom feeders on those teams.   Chiefs? Nope.   Bengals? if not for injury, their Oline was coming along MUCH better than the 2021 season.  Bills?... see below

 

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

Buffalo went 13-3 with holes all over their secondary.

 

What?

The Bills have one of the best safety duo's in the NFL.   

They have one of the most promising young nickel corners in the NFL.

They have tre'davious white who was coming back from an injury.

They just spent a 1st round pick on a corner in the 2022 draft.  

 

 

The Bills didn't have holes back there, and what holes they did wasn't from some lack of investment in either draft capital or free agency,  but from injury.     Where they DID have a hole was something I had mentioned when they played the Bengals...   edge twitch.   Their entire Dline is HUGE, and on the edge they have size and wingspan.  This is the primary reason why they're so good against the run.    What they lacked was a first step threat who could punish average tackles in space.   Buffalo signed that threat, Von Miller, to a monster contract in the hopes they could give him a pitch count that involved rushing the passer only.  Keeping him fresh and ready for a deep playoff push.      

 Then injury struck.   As a result, no Von Miller meant the Bills weren't able to hurt the average play from the book-ends that the Bengals fielded.   I can't remember if I posted it here or elsewhere, but that was the exact reason I took the Bengals to cover that day and specifically mentioned that matchup.     After all, it isn't like their secondary was the problem.   Joey Buckets just had an above average snap to throw time compared to what he had a various points throughout the postseason.   Snap to throw time that would haunt them eventually.  

 

 

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

 

 

 The Giants made the playoffs with a very suspect WR core

 

 Leaving out having a stable offensive line and a premier weapon in Saquon who finally stayed healthy.   Also leaving out them further riding the legs of Danny Dimes.  At one point, half way through the season, he was on pace for 1,000 rushing.   It was a ball control offense made possible by having a sound defense, a favorable schedule in places and playing in a top heavy NFC.   They also have some decent and young, but unspectacular players.   I've little doubt they'll be investing into their skill positions this off-season.   

 

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

 

 

 

the 49ers made the NFC championship Championship game with a 7th round QB.

 

 Top to bottom, the Niners have one of the most complete teams in the NFL.   I'm not sure if you even know where you're going with this.   They're also, like I said above, fortunate to play in a weakened NFC.   If anything, much like Philly, the Niners are the roster you would welcome a young QB to start in.   Quality line play, weapons and a coach who knows how to use them, then a defense that can get you the ball back.  

 

 

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

 

 

 The bengals made due with a patchwork Oline, can I stop? 

 

 

After spending $58 million on the Oline.   Oh, they made due because of the quick brilliance of Joe Burrow... until their patchwork Oline is what held them back against the Chiefs.   It wasn't patchwork  by design, it was from injury.   

 

 

 

 

 You actually typing this with a straight face is.... concerning.   Worse, I don't think you even understand the greater point you're trying to make.   Mentioning the Gmen and their receivers like "Hey, Look, THEY went to the playoffs! Why couldn't we?" is tragic and short-sighted at best.   Because the Browns DID go to the playoffs with an equivalently flawed defensive line in the 2020 season.... and look where that got us when we sat on our hands thinking it was good enough.   You can have flash in the pan, one year type success with the right fortune.  Will you sustain that though if you don't infuse needed talent into lacking position groups? No, the Browns (and many other teams) are proof of that.  If the Gmen don't get WR corps experience and talent, what little they have will also dry and up and harm the overall production on the offensive side of the ball.   Just as the Dline being a net negative harmed the Browns 2022 defensive production.  

 

 NOBODY is asking for top 50, pro bowl players.   NFL average play would be a tearfully welcomed step up.  

[Flugel]

14 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 I never understood the casual fans obsession with this idea.   But it screams of someone who has only ever played Madden.   Reminds me of a conversation I had with our resident Chiefs troll when he bragged that Coach Spaggs was moving Chris Jones to play an edge spot on early downs.   Ended up being a massive liability.

 

 

I believe most of us (ok, me) asked for investment at any point, not top 60.    The Dline has been slowly deteriorating for a few years and Malik McDowells departure turned it into a wasteland.   This is the natural order of things - finding balance.   As I've said, the Browns front office went so far in one direction by over-investing in the secondary, that they all but completely ignored the defensive front.   This wasn't unseen either.  

 

 Not only is the Dline (besides Myles) our weakest unit, it is one of the very weakest position groups of any team in the entire NFL.   And it's actually not even really all that close.    So.... yeah, it's because of a lack of investment.   Let me try this. 

 The secondary has two 1st round CB's, a 2nd round DB, a high-target FA DB, (soon to be gone) and a top 75 CB.  You have a coach coming in that has tools to work with because there's talent on the backend.   

 You have a defensive coach coming in looking at cutting 3 players on the Dline alone who were all starters throughout the season.  With the only saving grace for the others being that they're cheap rookies the front office feels hold SOME promise.  Meaning that when the drawing board is hit, they'll be the first group to talk about fixing.         You see the difference here now...   

The Browns IDL has had ONE top 75 pick spent on it since (and including) 2016.

  Let that sink in.   Because that means the Browns have spent more on premium DBs the last 2 years,  than the entire IDL in the past 8.   In 2020 and 2021, plus bringing in Johnny J, sure it was justified.   You can't walk out Karl Joesph with Andrew Sendejo and be like "yeah, we're good".   That was the worst graded safety duo in the entire NFL for 2020.     Which means the Browns hold that title for 2 different position groups in two different years in the last 3 seasons alone.    That is a disgusting imbalance.   To be fair, Delpit was drafted in 2020 and would have seen a ton of snaps if not for his injury.     Still.... would Grant have rescued that group had he started? Hell no, he likely would have been even more of a liability than both those two.  

 

 Investment AND development.   You don't have to invest if players step forward.   But in 2021, Jordan Elliot and Tommy Togiai had their doors blown off so bad, it would take a level of spin to think they would be even average NFL starters the next (this past) season that I can't even imagine.     Another issue I have with this front office, their harmful dedication to their picks even when not panning out.   So when there is no sign of development, you have to circle back to investment.  This goes double when your initial investment was looking at tweener players in hopes of finding late round gold under rocks anyway.  

 

 Hope isn't a strategy.  The Front office believed "their guys" were ready.   Unfortunately their belief was delusion... at best.  

 

This is correct.  But you can't have foundational flaws in your roster. Period.   You can't field bottom tier NFL units and not expect to pay the price for it.    But I look at the top teams in the AFC and I don't see entire units that are bottom feeders on those teams.   Chiefs? Nope.   Bengals? if not for injury, their Oline was coming along MUCH better than the 2021 season.  Bills?... see below

 

What?

The Bills have one of the best safety duo's in the NFL.   

They have one of the most promising young nickel corners in the NFL.

They have tre'davious white who was coming back from an injury.

They just spent a 1st round pick on a corner in the 2022 draft.  

 

 

The Bills didn't have holes back there, and what holes they did wasn't from some lack of investment in either draft capital or free agency,  but from injury.     Where they DID have a hole was something I had mentioned when they played the Bengals...   edge twitch.   Their entire Dline is HUGE, and on the edge they have size and wingspan.  This is the primary reason why they're so good against the run.    What they lacked was a first step threat who could punish average tackles in space.   Buffalo signed that threat, Von Miller, to a monster contract in the hopes they could give him a pitch count that involved rushing the passer only.  Keeping him fresh and ready for a deep playoff push.      

 Then injury struck.   As a result, no Von Miller meant the Bills weren't able to hurt the average play from the book-ends that the Bengals fielded.   I can't remember if I posted it here or elsewhere, but that was the exact reason I took the Bengals to cover that day and specifically mentioned that matchup.     After all, it isn't like their secondary was the problem.   Joey Buckets just had an above average snap to throw time compared to what he had a various points throughout the postseason.   Snap to throw time that would haunt them eventually.  

 

 

 

 Leaving out having a stable offensive line and a premier weapon in Saquon who finally stayed healthy.   Also leaving out them further riding the legs of Danny Dimes.  At one point, half way through the season, he was on pace for 1,000 rushing.   It was a ball control offense made possible by having a sound defense, a favorable schedule in places and playing in a top heavy NFC.   They also have some decent and young, but unspectacular players.   I've little doubt they'll be investing into their skill positions this off-season.   

 

 Top to bottom, the Niners have one of the most complete teams in the NFL.   I'm not sure if you even know where you're going with this.   They're also, like I said above, fortunate to play in a weakened NFC.   If anything, much like Philly, the Niners are the roster you would welcome a young QB to start in.   Quality line play, weapons and a coach who knows how to use them, then a defense that can get you the ball back.  

 

 

 

After spending $58 million on the Oline.   Oh, they made due because of the quick brilliance of Joe Burrow... until their patchwork Oline is what held them back against the Chiefs.   It wasn't patchwork  by design, it was from injury.   

 

 

 

 

 You actually typing this with a straight face is.... concerning.   Worse, I don't think you even understand the greater point you're trying to make.   Mentioning the Gmen and their receivers like "Hey, Look, THEY went to the playoffs! Why couldn't we?" is tragic and short-sighted at best.   Because the Browns DID go to the playoffs with an equivalently flawed defensive line in the 2020 season.... and look where that got us when we sat on our hands thinking it was good enough.   You can have flash in the pan, one year type success with the right fortune.  Will you sustain that though if you don't infuse needed talent into lacking position groups? No, the Browns (and many other teams) are proof of that.  If the Gmen don't get WR corps experience and talent, what little they have will also dry and up and harm the overall production on the offensive side of the ball.   Just as the Dline being a net negative harmed the Browns 2022 defensive production.  

 

 NOBODY is asking for top 50, pro bowl players.   NFL average play would be a tearfully welcomed step up.  

Wow!  If I could lay it all out like that - I wouldn't be torturing everyone with the football world according to Flugel. But I can't so TOUGH SHIT everyone!  

[Vambo]

 

[SdBacker80]

Well I’ve never played Madden.  I’ve spent time furthering my career, enjoying outdoor activities, cooking, spending time with family and socializing with other people and casually watching Cleveland sports. Drinking good bourbon.   Don’t get me wrong I enjoy the banter here it is nice talking football with fans that have the same rooting interest.  Someday I’ll look back at everything and wish I ardently poured over Browns tape (Nah) which I am sure people actually do for a really good living. 

anyway…

Bills secondary- White and Hyde were out basically the entire season.  Jordan Poyer missed 5 games and they started a rookie DB AND they had one of the most unfortunate injuries of the year to one of the backups. Just facts here. 
 

Giants WRs- lost sterling Shepard and had a disgruntled Kenny Golladay.  Facts again.  It is the known weak link of the team. Opinion.    I watched 15 Giants games this year.  They were truly a smoke and mirrors team and I expect my wife to be unhappy next year when they come back down to Earth.  

Myles had been successfully deployed inside in the past.  I’ve heard other  authorities around here ask for something similar

Niners- 3rd string rookie at the most important position..just next man up here.   Their roster was all but complete except for the most important position in the field…but they schemed it up and coached it up well.

The reality is last year at this time we were in the midst of trying to fix the most important position on the football field.  We lost draft capital trying to do it. Years prior i laid out our past needs.  We have 24 starting positions I’m sure DT will be the focus this coming offseason and next Fall will be pointing out the shortfall with another position.  

 

 

[nickers]

47 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Well I’ve never played Madden.  I’ve spent time furthering my career, enjoying outdoor activities, cooking, spending time with family and socializing with other people and casually watching Cleveland sports. Drinking good bourbon.   Don’t get me wrong I enjoy the banter here it is nice talking football with fans that have the same rooting interest.  Someday I’ll look back at everything and wish I ardently poured over Browns tape (Nah) which I am sure people actually do for a really good living. 

anyway…

Bills secondary- White and Hyde were out basically the entire season.  Jordan Poyer missed 5 games and they started a rookie DB AND they had one of the most unfortunate injuries of the year to one of the backups. Just facts here. 
 

Giants WRs- lost sterling Shepard and had a disgruntled Kenny Golladay.  Facts again.  It is the known weak link of the team. Opinion.    I watched 15 Giants games this year.  They were truly a smoke and mirrors team and I expect my wife to be unhappy next year when they come back down to Earth.  

Myles had been successfully deployed inside in the past.  I’ve heard other  authorities around here ask for something similar

Niners- 3rd string rookie at the most important position..just next man up here.   Their roster was all but complete except for the most important position in the field…but they schemed it up and coached it up well.

The reality is last year at this time we were in the midst of trying to fix the most important position on the football field.  We lost draft capital trying to do it. Years prior i laid out our past needs.  We have 24 starting positions I’m sure DT will be the focus this coming offseason and next Fall will be pointing out the shortfall with another position.  

 

 

Loved how you rebutted and you didn't need to write a novel to do it... Good job...

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

Well I’ve never played Madden.  I’ve spent time furthering my career, enjoying outdoor activities, cooking, spending time with family and socializing with other people and casually watching Cleveland sports. Drinking good bourbon.   Don’t get me wrong I enjoy the banter here it is nice talking football with fans that have the same rooting interest.  Someday I’ll look back at everything and wish I ardently poured over Browns tape (Nah) which I am sure people actually do for a really good living. 

anyway…

Bills secondary- White and Hyde were out basically the entire season.  Jordan Poyer missed 5 games and they started a rookie DB AND they had one of the most unfortunate injuries of the year to one of the backups. Just facts here. 
 

Giants WRs- lost sterling Shepard and had a disgruntled Kenny Golladay.  Facts again.  It is the known weak link of the team. Opinion.    I watched 15 Giants games this year.  They were truly a smoke and mirrors team and I expect my wife to be unhappy next year when they come back down to Earth.  

Myles had been successfully deployed inside in the past.  I’ve heard other  authorities around here ask for something similar

Niners- 3rd string rookie at the most important position..just next man up here.   Their roster was all but complete except for the most important position in the field…but they schemed it up and coached it up well.

The reality is last year at this time we were in the midst of trying to fix the most important position on the football field.  We lost draft capital trying to do it. Years prior i laid out our past needs.  We have 24 starting positions I’m sure DT will be the focus this coming offseason and next Fall will be pointing out the shortfall with another position.  

 

 

Why is it you want to hold coaches and coordinators accountable but you want to give the FO multiple excuses? We were 11-5 with what they inherited; and now we're 7-10.  The QB position played well and the RB position wasn't a problem.  Scoring wasn't a problem if we look at our average points per game.  

Our weak DL cost us games and 4 LBers to IR.  That should have been addressed better last year.

[Orion]

On 2/28/2023 at 8:37 AM, tiamat63 said:

Our best IDL pick has been our latest round (Perrion)

A little early yet for that.  Multiple games last year he wasn't dressed - coach's decision.  Let's see how much Schwartz proves to like him.

4 hours ago, Vambo said:

 

Well knock me over with a feather.  He's played 6 games.  I think I said to Flugel that this was an impossibility.  

I'll still have to see it to believe it.

[SdBacker80]

3 hours ago, Flugel said:

Why is it you want to hold coaches and coordinators accountable but you want to give the FO multiple excuses? We were 11-5 with what they inherited; and now we're 7-10.  The QB position played well and the RB position wasn't a problem.  Scoring wasn't a problem if we look at our average points per game.  

Our weak DL cost us games and 4 LBers to IR.  That should have been addressed better last year.

First let’s get this out of the way…

Are you just a Madden player too?  I believe you asked for Myles to be kicked inside on some defensive packages as well. 
 
 

 

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

First let’s get this out of the way…

Are you just a Madden player too?  I believe you asked for Myles to be kicked inside on some defensive packages as well. 
 
 

 

First, I was referring to his entire response to you.  He addressed a lot of your concerns; but you only want to remain convinced the only problem was the DC.  

When you have ZERO talent on the IDL after 3 years with this FO, YES - I'll admit I occasionally wanted to see 1 bad ass line up over one of the OGs bullying Eric Berry's chosen ones inside.   Do you know why TJ Watt never has to line up over OGs?  Because Pittsburgh's IDL doesn't threaten forfeit upfront like Cleveland's did.  I hold the FO accountable for this; while you brought up Cincy's Oline, The Bills' Secondary and the Giants.  Those are teams with FOs that have made playoffs possible.  

I wanted Myles to be moved around once in a while like Houston did with JJ Watt back when Joe Thomas shut him down outside.  It worked too; because our Guards had trouble with this. My rationale is when teams are awaiting Garrett on the edge with help assembled for the OT in every series; they're probably not going to be well prepared if we surprisingly move Garrett over 1 of the Guards when they come up to the line of scrimmage.  If we did that a lot - they would be prepared. As I already said, the other reason I would have liked to see it once in a while is because our DTs were so pathetic - we had to to line 1 person up that could win a matchup.   

I also remember 2 years ago when we lined Clowney and Garrett up side by side on the edge (1 guy in a 3 point stance the other in a 2 point) vrs Tyrod Taylor and the Houston Texans.  Both guys crashed down to the inside as fast as they could.  Tyrod opened to his left, reversed out like a bootleg; and watched both of them take themselves right out of the play.  Consequently, Tyrod got outside easily; and pulled his hamstring halfway to the end zone limping the last 20 yards or so for a TD.   When you do something like that defensively, one guy has to keep an outside leverage/contain role that can be accomplished by getting straight upfield to the depth of the QB drop then clamp down/in on the QB.  By doing that, the only way the QB gets outside is to belly back further around the clamp down which also allows and invites defensive pursuit.  Clowney was Clowney though as we saw with the number of times he lined up offsides last season.  

[Kvoethe]

Tiger and Bubba??