Woods & Watson

[Flugel]

4 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 This. His rookie pay isn't so back-breaking that we NEED to clear his cap. And Hudson isn't an option that is head and shoulders above him. 

 

 

 

 I could show you a dozen plays where he was beaten from questionable footwork which lead to bad balance.  Then to recover, Jed ends up playing matador with the rusher and it's not a good look.   There were also a couple times he was beaten on missed blocking assignments in certain protections. Next thing you know he's looking around for work instead of moving.   If you, or anyone else for that matter, wants to see what I find firsthand, you're welcome to join me on TBB discord.  

 

 But don't ever insult me by saying some dumb shit like that again.   

 

Edit: and if you want to watch anything from the first 8 seasons of Family Guy, I'm down for that 😘

I trust what you tell us you find in your research T.  You don't spend the amount of time you do researching to make up stuff.   

That said, the reason I think he's lazy is when he run blocks - it seems like he frequently stops immediately after his initial hit (and stands there watching.).  That frustrates me to no end. The irony is while he's standing still - he's jumping off the screen at me.  I will confess I drink beer and try to relax watching the Browns .  But it's the BROWNS so that has a tendency to require quite a few of those frosted mug-fulls. 

[gumby73]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:10 AM, Flugel said:

Defensive Line Coach, Assistant Defensive Line Coach, Defensive Run Game Coordinator, Linebackers Coach, Defensive Backs Coach, Assistant Defensive Backs Coach, Defensive Assistant, Defensive Quality Control, Sr Offensive Assistant, Offensive Assistant, QBs Coach, Offensive Line Coach, Assistant Offensive Line Coach, RBs Coach, Receivers Coach, Assistant Receivers Coach, TEs Coach, Offensive Assistant, Offensive Quality Control, Assistant Special Teams Coach.  All these coaches and their assistants are the nuts and bolts of developing the guys our FO drafts/acquires to the system the Browns have set up.

Here's my Berry bitch...      

who's in Andrew Berry's office, scouting free agents? https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2022/06/16/browns-make-several-new-hires-and-promotions-in-the-front-office-and-scouting-staff/

Adam Al-Khayyal – Director of pro scouting    Sam DeLuca – Assistant director of pro scouting

Who can we label as AB's best FA signing ?  Clowney? Pocic? Walker? Brissett? JJ3?

Philly just may win a SB, with a good FA scouting front office.. no wonder they hired AB's twin brother 🤓

back under my 3rd rock from the sun 🌞  end rant

[Orion]

9 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

and if you want to watch anything from the first 8 seasons of Family Guy, I'm down for that 😘

...grandkids...episode after episode of Bluey.  

[Dutch Oven]

11 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Edit: and if you want to watch anything from the first 8 seasons of Family Guy, I'm down for that 😘

 

[tiamat63]

14 hours ago, Orion said:

...grandkids...episode after episode of Bluey.  

Oh Jesus on Ice Skates.   You have my deepest sympathies. 

[syd]

wow the aints hired woods for their d.c

[Korsou Dawg]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:12 PM, ballpeen said:

Thanks, I hadn't seen that but I have looked at enough player rankings and done a few mocks and he should be available around our draft position. At least as things stand now.  Who knows what happens over the next few months.

As much as I would like to draft a DT, I am not sure the value will be there. I don't think we should or will be going in to this draft with needs as the primary  concern.  Without a 1st rounder this year and next, it's really important we get a few good players a draft who can become starters or we are going to have a talent void in a few years as guys like Bitonio, Chubb, etc are riding out the string or no longer on the team

Best player available is apparently a key part of the approach of this FO. Drafting JOK in spite of their general disdain of LBs would support that. Drafting Jed and reaching for Newsome could make one second guess.

We definitely need longer term starters as you say, even if they do not start immediately. But we definitely need a quality injection in our IDL, and depth across many position groups. Being down to third and fourth stringers due to injuries in our O-line and LBs comes to mind. Speaking of which, we could probably do with improvements in the area of sports medicine and physical therapy to prevent or recover faster from injuries. 

Basically, we damn near need it all. Yikes!

[ballpeen]

3 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Best player available is apparently a key part of the approach of this FO. Drafting JOK in spite of their general disdain of LBs would support that. Drafting Jed and reaching for Newsome could make one second guess.

We definitely need longer term starters as you say, even if they do not start immediately. But we definitely need a quality injection in our IDL, and depth across many position groups. Being down to third and fourth stringers due to injuries in our O-line and LBs comes to mind. Speaking of which, we could probably do with improvements in the area of sports medicine and physical therapy to prevent or recover faster from injuries. 

Basically, we damn near need it all. Yikes!

It's not that bad.  DT is the only position we are what i would call lacking....maybe backer to a degree.

 

I think we can cover DT in free agency.  We don't need the superstar DT, we just need good.  You can find those players.  Now with Schwartz on board, maybe he can give a little guidance on what we need to look for.

 

I think we have been looking for players who have Aaron Donald measurables, and that is all well and good, but it doesn't work that way at grunt positions.  Those guys need to have the "grunt" so to speak and i don't think that can be measured.

 

 

[Orion]

5 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

We definitely need longer term starters as you say, even if they do not start immediately.

And they thought they had done that at DT.  They guys they drafted didn't start immediately.  This past season was their season to be starters.  And since that failed it's back to the drawing board on that position.

I saw a Yahoo headline today (didn't read the article) that the Browns receiving corps were among the leagues slowest units.  I'm assuming that includes Schwartz.  So that's certainly gotta be high on the list.  We've invested a quarter billion dollars and 3 first round picks on the passer.  You can bet that Haslem & DePo have told Berry that that passer better have the receiving talent he needs to be successful.  

[nickers]

3 hours ago, Orion said:

And they thought they had done that at DT.  They guys they drafted didn't start immediately.  This past season was their season to be starters.  And since that failed it's back to the drawing board on that position.

I saw a Yahoo headline today (didn't read the article) that the Browns receiving corps were among the leagues slowest units.  I'm assuming that includes Schwartz.  So that's certainly gotta be high on the list.  We've invested a quarter billion dollars and 3 first round picks on the passer.  You can bet that Haslem & DePo have told Berry that that passer better have the receiving talent he needs to be successful.  

I don't know that it's "failed"... I want to see these kids in Schwartz's system... I want to see how Perrion Winfrey reacts and plays in this defense ... He has a lot of growing up to do

[Flugel]

5 hours ago, nickers said:

I don't know that it's "failed"... I want to see these kids in Schwartz's system... I want to see how Perrion Winfrey reacts and plays in this defense ... He has a lot of growing up to do

If there's any Nurse Ratched clones out there - I think the Browns should be innovative and get her on the staff.  I think poor Cheswick is still waiting for his cigarettes.  Anyway, Winfrey now has some experience behind him so we should see some improvements via that as well as what Schwartz can tap.   

[Flugel]

12 hours ago, ballpeen said:

It's not that bad.  DT is the only position we are what i would call lacking....maybe backer to a degree.

I think we can cover DT in free agency.  We don't need the superstar DT, we just need good.  You can find those players.  Now with Schwartz on board, maybe he can give a little guidance on what we need to look for.

I think we have been looking for players who have Aaron Donald measurables, and that is all well and good, but it doesn't work that way at grunt positions.  Those guys need to have the "grunt" so to speak and i don't think that can be measured.

Love that last line from you in bold above!   I'm all in on some grunt and hunt.

The offseason before the Browns made the playoffs, I remembered worrying so much about the LBer Corps that I almost needed new shampoo.  The Browns brought in FA (and former 1st round pick) DT Sheldon Richardson the year before this and he was one of the big reasons upfront/inside they were keeping the OGs off the LBers.  Was he still in his prime?  Not really; but he brought a wealth of experience and leadership qualities that helped get the little things out of his defensive teammates.  For example, something as little "hey, y'all don't forget to get your hands up in the air when Ben is trying throw." 2 of 3 of Roethlisberger's 5 INTs in that playoff game were caused by deflected passes by our DL upfront. Those little things from our blue collar grunt really add up.

Yeah, we're not going to land an Aaron Donald in round 2 like you said; but I'll take another Bob Golic (previously drafted in the 2nd round of 1979 by NE).  He ended up as a Pro Bowl player for us as a 2 gap gem at NT.  He couldn't played well in a 2 gap scheme at DT as well if he needed to.  Point is, with him in the middle in 1986 - the Browns had the top rated AFC Defense against the run.  We got Golic as a FA in 1982 after he wasn't a keeper in NE's system (and I think he was originally drafted as a LBer).  Who knows?  Maybe 1 or 2 of the IDL guys that weren't emerging in Woods' system will do so in Schwartz'.  

We could very well add a FA for our IDL; but they tend to cost more against the cap than a draftee via the rookie salary cap. There should be some very good prospects on our door step in round 2.  I'd add round 3; but the FO luck with IDL in that round hasn't been good yet.  Improving the IDL is doable; and the experience volume/expertise of Schwartz should have a strong influence in the kind of help he feels he needs inside/upfront. 

[ballpeen]

8 hours ago, nickers said:

I don't know that it's "failed"... I want to see these kids in Schwartz's system... I want to see how Perrion Winfrey reacts and plays in this defense ... He has a lot of growing up to do

I mostly agree.  Winfree is still early.  I think Orion was talking about a guy like Togiai.  He is a fail.  He just sucks.  

 

 

[nickers]

2 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I mostly agree.  Winfree is still early.  I think Orion was talking about a guy like Togiai.  He is a fail.  He just sucks.  

 

 

I'm disappointed in Togiai... I don't want to close the book on him too soon.. But , he's making it hard for sure...

[tiamat63]

 Togiai, barring miracle physical growth or undetected roid use, is already history.  He was a questionable tweener that was picked at least a round early.   His work against any team that called zone to his side was tragic at best.   If you can't one 1gap plug, it won't matter what defensive coordinator you play under. 

 Jordan Elliot is also toast, unless Schwartz thinks he can drop the 20ish pounds he put on and play 3tech.  

Taven Bryan's contact won't be picked back up for round 2 either. 

[Axe]

On 2/7/2023 at 2:18 PM, syd said:

wow the aints hired woods for their d.c

As a Bucs and Browns fan, this makes me smile.

 

[Orion]

8 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I think Orion was talking about a guy like Togiai.

Yes, he and Elliott.  The FO hoped that they would be ready to be starters this year.  Well, it was a thought.  Now to plan B.  As far as Winfrey, I didn't like the way he played hardball with his contract, as if he was a first round pick, pre-cap.  That rubs me the wrong way.  (I know, who am I anyhow?)  But he wound up in Stef's dog house too and was a healthy scratch more than a time or two.  Still though, he was a rookie.  So he gets more time.  Plus, Tia liked him 

[ballpeen]

I am not totally out on Elliott.

 

The problem with him is he isn't a line anchor, and that is sort of what he has to play.  I think he can be useful, but he needs to be next to a better player.

[Orion]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

I am not totally out on Elliott.

Fair.  We did hear his name called a couple of times a game.  He was involved in 36 tackles, 19 solo, 2 sacks.

Our leading tackler was Grant Delpit with 105.   That little guy had 72 solo tackles.  That's pretty good for a guy who couldn't stay healthy previously.  And right behind him was John Johnson.  101 tackles, 70 solo.   I'd like to know how many of those tackles were on RB's.  Those two earned their pay.

Takitaki & JOK came next with 71 & 70 respectively.  But we couldn't keep LB'ers off the IR list.  Of course nobody wants to wear 'real' pads anymore.

[ballpeen]

[quote]Of course nobody wants to wear 'real' pads anymore[/quote]

 

The NFL should mandate pad specs for players.  I think part of the injury problem is the speed at which the game is played.

 

On the topic of DT's, that is a position where you normally aren't going to hear a players name.  If you take away the freaks, who are far and few between, DT is more of a position who just bodgers up the O and other people end up making the tackles. 

Also, they generally don't get all that many sacks.  The hope is they can collapse the pocket 4-5 feet taking away the step up area the QB might have. Generally the O has a 3 on 2 advantage up the middle in their blocking scheme.

[tiamat63]

17 hours ago, Orion said:

  Plus, Tia liked him 

 I liked/like his potential.  The wins we saw from him this year were mostly based on his physical gifts and intensity, not so much his technique or consistency. 

 I see the player he is and the player he can be.  He'll make for one hell of an IDL if this coaching staff, including some renewed personal focus from Perrion himself, can find a way to reach that next level of growth.  

 The key to unlocking the Browns pass rush isn't investing insane money into another edge across Myles and making it perimeter heavy.  Developing that interior presence that can limit the run, keep excess contact off our linebackers (keeping them healthy) which in turn earns our pass rushers more snaps to get after the QB.   I believe Perrion can be a crucial player in helping this defensive front each that point.     Provided he's willing to put in the work....

 

Edit:. And I should say, I have high hopes for Perrion because, to date, this front office has been pretty god awful at identifying and drafting Dline talent. 

[nickers]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

 I liked/like his potential.  The wins we saw from him this year were mostly based on his physical gifts and intensity, not so much his technique or consistency. 

 I see the player he is and the player he can be.  He'll make for one hell of an IDL if this coaching staff, including some renewed personal focus from Perrion himself, can find a way to reach that next level of growth.  

 The key to unlocking the Browns pass rush isn't investing insane money into another edge across Myles and making it perimeter heavy.  Developing that interior presence that can limit the run, keep excess contact off our linebackers (keeping them healthy) which in turn earns our pass rushers more snaps to get after the QB.   I believe Perrion can be a crucial player in helping this defensive front each that point.     Provided he's willing to put in the work....

 

Edit:. And I should say, I have high hopes for Perrion because, to date, this front office has been pretty god awful at identifying and drafting Dline talent. 

As I stated... Winfrey has some serious growing up to do if he intends to survive in this league... I love the kids physicality... Now we need to see it from the mental aspect....

[Orion]

12 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

The key to unlocking the Browns pass rush isn't investing insane money into another edge across Myles and making it perimeter heavy.  Developing that interior presence that can limit the run, keep excess contact off our linebackers (keeping them healthy)

As you've mentioned, they drafted Alex Wright.  He's Clowney's height with a dozen extra lbs.  Clowney was quick.  The other DE's weren't all that...

To expand a little:   The Browns drafted 3 DLinemen last year.  Two DE's (though Isaiah Thomas was a 7th rounder) and 1 DT.  And then a DT in each of the previous 2 drafts.  Our DL was not good last year, and sadly, with all of that effort, we're still at the drawing board.  

[ballpeen]

19 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 

 

Edit:. And I should say, I have high hopes for Perrion because, to date, this front office has been pretty god awful at identifying and drafting Dline talent. 

That seems like a contradiction. 😁

 

I also think the guy has a chance to be a good player.  I just worry about the egg head factor.

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

That seems like a contradiction. 😁

A broken clock is still right twice a day 😅

[SdBacker80]

17 hours ago, Orion said:

As you've mentioned, they drafted Alex Wright.  He's Clowney's height with a dozen extra lbs.  Clowney was quick.  The other DE's weren't all that...

To expand a little:   The Browns drafted 3 DLinemen last year.  Two DE's (though Isaiah Thomas was a 7th rounder) and 1 DT.  And then a DT in each of the previous 2 drafts.  Our DL was not good last year, and sadly, with all of that effort, we're still at the drawing board.  

I believe all three flashed at times and you are talking about Picks 78, 108 and 223…year 1 you develop these guys you don’t expect Day 1 starter Level production and contributions.

I don’t think we are back to the drawing board.  Back to drawing board is Myles is traded away or Deshaun isn’t the Deshaun of old come next October. 

[Orion]

It’s time for the Browns to move on from defensive tackle Jordan Elliott

JACOB ROACH

Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 10:45 AM EST1 min read

 

The Cleveland Browns selected defensive tackle Jordan Elliott in the third round pick number 88 in the 2020 NFL draft. Touted as a pass-rushing player with good athleticism coming out of Missouri three seasons later he only has 2.5 career sacks. He lacks a true pass-rush plan and his hand placement and technique just aren’t good enough to win consistently at the NFL level.

Elliott is a massive liability in run defense and PFF gave him an abysmal 33-run defense grade in 352 run defense snaps this past season. The worst part is that he has been unable to show much improvement overall three years into the league. This is a total miss from the front office who needs to admit its mistake and move on this offseason.

[Flugel]

12 hours ago, Orion said:

It’s time for the Browns to move on from defensive tackle Jordan Elliott

JACOB ROACH

Fri, Feb 10, 2023, 10:45 AM EST1 min read

 

The Cleveland Browns selected defensive tackle Jordan Elliott in the third round pick number 88 in the 2020 NFL draft. Touted as a pass-rushing player with good athleticism coming out of Missouri three seasons later he only has 2.5 career sacks. He lacks a true pass-rush plan and his hand placement and technique just aren’t good enough to win consistently at the NFL level.

Elliott is a massive liability in run defense and PFF gave him an abysmal 33-run defense grade in 352 run defense snaps this past season. The worst part is that he has been unable to show much improvement overall three years into the league. This is a total miss from the front office who needs to admit its mistake and move on this offseason.

Thanks for sharing the article!   The sad thing is most of us already knew this before last offseason began.  Then when they looked to free agency; they found a guy (Tavon Bryan) that was a major 1st round disappointment in Jax for 3 years.  When it comes the Defensive Line - it doesn't look like the FO has a clue about their importance at all.  Berry didn't even draft Myles Garrett - so who has he drafted?   The old, we have to wait 3 years to judge his draft choices will continue to save his fanny.  

Equally disturbing, they haven't been all that wonderful drafting Offensive Linemen either. The ONLY starter this FO has drafted for the Offensive Line is Jedrick Wills; which looks way more Summer School than Honor Roll right now.  Bitonio and Teller were already here before Berry was rehired.  At some point this FO has to compete better in the draft if they want a competitive team with a healthy salary cap.  While I thought the Jack Conklin signing via FA was a great idea, it feels like he's been injured all but the year the Browns went to the playoffs.  That said, they just extended his contract.  This would be fine if he didn't have such bad luck with injuries from wear and tear at this stage of his career.  

The organization just did a major smoke and mirrors dance handing out promotions and changing positions/titles for employees in their scouting dept.  I wish I could say that inspired my confidence in them; but the nucleus of players we're counting on like Chubb, Garrett, Ward, Bitonio and Teller were already here before Berry was rehired. Someone told me Berry's mother said he's been studying the NFL salary cap since he was in junior high school.  I also know he went to Harvard and excelled in football there as a Defensive Back. Furthermore, he came back to this team after working for the Executive VP/General Manager (Howie Roseman) of the Super Bowl Champions in Philly.  I WANT Berry to succeed; but there's important parts of this team he hasn't been improving through the draft.  Just like when I played football in the 70s and very early 80s, I focus more on what needs to be improved.  If you don't do this you're average at best instead of becoming a 1st Team All County East Selection at Offensive Guard.  Did I really just type that?  What a BASTARD!!!!!!!!!!   Bigger point here is that I didn't possess the athletic God Given's to give me an ego satisfied with what's in the rear view mirror.  It was where can I focus my insatiable passion to feel the reward of my effort and get to where I want to be?  Another fun part was there were always new things to learn regardless of experience volume. 

 

[ballpeen]

I agree that the FO needs some new eyes and possibly an adjustment to their analytics formula when it comes to DT.

 

My hope is Schwartz can be those eyes and helps in that regard.

It's obvious that Aaron Donald is the mold analytics sees DT's.  The problem is guys like Donald only come around every 10 years or so.  Fast and quick is great.  I am just not sure they know how to measure the "mean son of a bitch" in a player.  I want them to measure that.

Flugs, I know you did live in Nashville, if you still don't. You were around in the Haynesworth days.  Living in Tennessee I sort of follow the Titans to a degree.  I didn't condone when Big Albert was stomping on that players head, but I have to admit I kind of liked it.

[Flugel]

14 minutes ago, ballpeen said:

Flugs, I know you did live in Nashville, if you still don't. You were around in the Haynesworth days.  Living in Tennessee I sort of follow the Titans to a degree.  I didn't condone when Big Albert was stomping on that players head, but I have to admit I kind of liked it.

Classic stuff!  It reminded me of Turkey Jones reminding the Steelers of what that cheap shot out of bounds on the 175 pound Brian Sipe from Jack Lambert could lead to in the rematch.  Sometimes you need a goon/intimidating force on the field to remind your opponent they better play by the rules or else...  I'm thinking something must have happened earlier in that game that triggered the reaction from Haynesworth.  I do agree he took it a little too far.