Trumps NFL tweet

[calfoxwc]

29 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

Trump is a nationalist, which is not at all the same thing as a patriot. A nationalist encourages us to be our worst, and then tells us that we are the best. A nationalist, “although endlessly brooding on power, victory, defeat, revenge,” wrote Orwell, tends to be “uninterested in what happens in the real world.” Nationalism is relativist, since the only truth is the resentment we feel when we contemplate others. As the novelist Danilo Kiš put it, nationalism “has no universal values, aesthetic or ethical.”

 

A patriot, by contrast, wants the nation to live up to its ideals, which means asking us to be our best selves. A patriot must be concerned with the real world, which is the only place where his country can be loved and sustained. A patriot has universal values, standards by which he judges his nation, always wishing it well—and wishing that it would do better.

 

Using governmental power to compel a player to stop kneeling [whether you agree with the action OR NOT] is a direct violation of the First Amendment.  That's not living up to the stated ideals of America.

na·tion·al·ist

/ˈnaSH(ə)nələst/

noun

• 1. a person who advocates political independence for a country: "a Scottish nationalist"

adjective

• 1. of or relating to nationalists or nationalism: "a nationalist movement"

 

Nationalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with Patriotism.

Nationalism is a range of political, social, and economic systems characterized by promoting the interests of a particular nation, particularly with the aim of gaining and maintaining self-governance, or full sovereignty, over the group's homeland. The political ideology therefore holds that a nation should govern itself, free from unwanted outside interference, and is linked to the concept of self-determination.

[The Gipper]

57 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

The NFL needs to get it's own house in order and decide which of their own rules they are going to enforce. They should enforce them all and not selectively enforce their rules. If they are going to tell the Cowboys they cannot honor slain police officers because of the rules then players should be made to obey the rules in regards to standing and honoring the national anthem. 

If I remember right at one time players did remain in the locker room while the national anthem was played but came out in recent years to show patriotism and support for the military. The toothpaste is out of the tube now and  I see no way of going back. if the NFL would try to revert to that again it won't fly as the Steelers tried that already. The solution is really simple enforce all the rules here.

Trump may have poured gas on the fire but the real problem are NFL players doing something that offends many of their fans (customers). 

 

 

The fact that you don't know what the "real" problem is....is telling.   Do you even know what the protests are about?

Also.....I have asked this again over and over.....why is it that we need to have the anthem played at sporting events...when it is not played at any other entertainment venue you ever go to? 

Further...it goes beyond just Trump pouring gas on a fire.....because this is not even a fire.  Its just a lump of coal laying on the ground. It may be fuel, but its not hot at all...in fact, it is a cold ember that had been put out years or decades ago.  We have some real fires going on....that he seems to be ignoring  (or, in the case of N.Korea....it really is a raging fire that he does pour fuel on)

Also...what "rules" are it that you want enforced so badly?  And how many of their other rules go unenforced? 

[The Gipper]

39 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Political Board please.

Well, this is Football history....that explains a lot about what is going on in the present is happening...to football.    In lieu of the Trivia, I put this history lesson together.  

Would you prefer the Trivia?

[Tour2ma]

Sometimes, cal, you have to click the little drop down for more meanings in a google search of a word's meaning...

na·tion·al·ist

ˈnaSH(ə)nələst/

noun

noun: nationalist; plural noun: nationalists

1. 1.

   a person who advocates political independence for a country.

   "a Scottish nationalist"

   • a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others.

 

... or even click on a different resource... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism

Definition of nationalism

1 :loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially :a sense of national consciousness (see consciousness 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

• Intense nationalism was one of the causes of the war.

 

 

[stillmotion]

1 minute ago, The Gipper said:

Well, this is Football history....that explains a lot about what is going on in the present is happening...to football.    In lieu of the Trivia, I put this history lesson together.  

Would you prefer the Trivia?

I've heard over the last couple of days about the USFL. Dude definitely had a gripe with the NFL and that probably had to do with his comments. He wants NFL ratings to tank more, and that makes his stupid tweet make much more sense. Nice research Gip

[DieHardBrownsFan]

11 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

The fact that you don't know what the "real" problem is....is telling.   Do you even know what the protests are about?

Also.....I have asked this again over and over.....why is it that we need to have the anthem played at sporting events...when it is not played at any other entertainment venue you ever go to? 

Further...it goes beyond just Trump pouring gas on a fire.....because this is not even a fire.  Its just a lump of coal laying on the ground. It may be fuel, but its not hot at all...in fact, it is a cold ember that had been put out years or decades ago.  We have some real fires going on....that he seems to be ignoring  (or, in the case of N.Korea....it really is a raging fire that he does pour fuel on)

Also...what "rules" are it that you want enforced so badly?  And how many of their other rules go unenforced? 

...

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

Gipper = (Trump)2

If by that you mean that I too hold a grudge a long time....you may possibly be right. 

If you think about it.....what happened with Trump and his disastrous handling of the USFL may have directly had an effect on what happened with the Browns and the whole "move" situation".

Recall that the USFL, from what I recall did have quite a bit of success and a good following in certain cities.  Remember they had the Baltimore Stars, and the Jacksonville Bulls to name a couple of teams.  The USFL was in a number of non NFL markets at the time.  Like said, Baltimore, Jacksonville, Portland, Birmingham, San Antonio etc.    IF in fact...instead of trying to just squeeze money out of the NFL...which was his ultimate goal in pursuing the lawsuit, he had tried to compete with the NFL....which they were not doing a bad job of, then after a few years they MAY have forced a merger.  If that happened then you very well may have had teams in some of those cities joining the NFL....including Baltimore and JAX.  Now, because the suit was not successful Trump just folded up the leagues tent and went home....that left a vacuum in football in those town.   Later when the NFL did decide to expand, it decided AGAINST Baltimore, in favor of Jacksonville for expansion.  (It also granted a team to Charlotte NC).  Baltimore had actually, by all reports, been the favorite for expansion.  Instead, they got stiffed....and they had all this money in their coffers that they thought would be used for an NFL expansion team. But that didn't happen.....and one of the leading figures against Baltimore getting a team was one Art Modell. Well...we know what happened there.   Baltimore gets no team...and they go searching and offering bribes to certain weak ass owners...and of course up pops Modell...wanting to move the Browns.   The rest of course is history.....

But...who knows how that history would have  changed if in fact Trump were not just out for money....if he had really been serious about putting a viable football product out there...if he hadn't sued, if he had competed instead, if he had not folded the USFL, and if in fact the merger that was being sought had occurred, even if a bit delayed.  And of course we know what kind of a shit storm we have had with the rejuvenated Browns.  So, in a sense, indirectly you can lay this shit storm at Trump's door.  A lot of other certainly have had their hands in it...Modell, the Lerners, Haslam....but by no means should Trump be let off the hook.  Quite frankly....my dear, he just didn't give a damn about the football fans of America....only about his own self aggrandizement, be that monetarily or egotistically.  When his ego took the hit from the $3  judgment, he pussied out on trying to make the USFL viable.  But, yet, again I think it is a case of him blaming others for his own fuck up.  He blames the NFL instead of looking in the mirror and seeing what a cut and run coward he really was.

[OldBrownsFan]

7 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

The fact that you don't know what the "real" problem is....is telling.   Do you even know what the protests are about?

Also.....I have asked this again over and over.....why is it that we need to have the anthem played at sporting events...when it is not played at any other entertainment venue you ever go to? 

Further...it goes beyond just Trump pouring gas on a fire.....because this is not even a fire.  Its just a lump of coal laying on the ground. It may be fuel, but its not hot at all...in fact, it is a cold ember that had been put out years or decades ago.  We have some real fires going on....that he seems to be ignoring  (or, in the case of N.Korea....it really is a raging fire that he does pour fuel on)

Also...what "rules" are it that you want enforced so badly?  And how many of their other rules go unenforced? 

I don't think if you asked many people that question they would know what the protests are about. I thought the original protests were about police brutality but the latest ones seemed to be more of a protest against Trump. Lets take police brutality and Black Lives Matter. I am all for discussion but I really don't have anything to discuss with anyone who chants "pigs in a blanket fry em like bacon". 

Remember Kaepernicks socks with the pigs?  I remember to their credit a BLM chapter had a picnic and invited the police to come. It was a great success as those in the community got to hear what police were up against and police got to hear the complaints of it's black citizens. Do you know who opposed having police invited to the BLM picnic? Other Black Lives Matter were highly critical of  having the police there.

http://ksn.com/2016/07/21/washington-dc-blm-movement-denounces-wichita-cookout-event/

 

As for the national anthem being played at sporting events I would go with let the fans decide if they want it or not. 

I want all the rules to be enforced as if you selectively enforce rules you may as well have no rules at all.

 

 

 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

Gipper translation:

"well, by golly, what about the dinosaurs and dragons, you fools? and the aliens who came here when I was a kid back

in the 1890's ! and the DIRT ! I know dirt, and you don't, and what about the dragon people who play in the NFL, huh? blah blah blah blah... "

Cal Fox translation:  I really actually hate the US Constitution unless I can twist it to my own perverted point of view.

[The Gipper]

While yes, you can have dueling defintions........all of which may be valid, there are those that can pervert such words and meaning.

I mean, look at this:  you wouldn't think of the Nazis...who were fascists, as "socialists" now would you......but they would.

The word "Nazi" is an abbreviation for the word "Nationalsozialist". The full name of the political party was the "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" - the National Socialist German Worker's Party.

 

[The Gipper]

17 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

I don't think if you asked many people that question they would know what the protests are about. I thought the original protests were about police brutality but the latest ones seemed to be more of a protest against Trump. Lets take police brutality and Black Lives Matter. I am all for discussion but I really don't have anything to discuss with anyone who chants "pigs in a blanket fry em like bacon". 

That is right.  The original protests were about police brutality.  But Trump poured fuel on the fire for his own venal/political reasons.

And I absolutely agree about Kaepernick ...and others who did what you describe here.  Those action served to almost completely discredit his entire protest. Taking a knee in protest of police brutality is certainly a viable protest. But doing the other things was just an attempt at a general indictment. 

Remember Kaepernicks socks with the pigs?  I remember to their credit a BLM chapter had a picnic and invited the police to come. It was a great success as those in the community got to hear what police were up against and police got to hear the complaints of it's black citizens. Do you know who opposed having police invited to the BLM picnic? Other Black Lives Matter were highly critical of  having the police there.

http://ksn.com/2016/07/21/washington-dc-blm-movement-denounces-wichita-cookout-event/

Well, I think  the purpose of  protest is to bring awareness to an issue....but that is NOT enough.  What do you do after awareness?  You try to find solutions, compromise, work together to correct problems.  So, yes,  there was never ever going to be a solution that didn't involve the communities and the local police trying to work together to see what can be done to avoid the...problems that the protests were all about. 

 

 

As for the national anthem being played at sporting events I would go with let the fans decide if they want it or not. 

No, fans got no clue.....and may be split 50/50....so no...it is up to a promoter to make whatever decision is to be made.

I want all the rules to be enforced as if you selectively enforce rules you may as well have no rules at all.

Welcome to Planet Earth....where  in your version of it you would get a $250  ticket for going 56 in a 55 mph zone!

 

 

 

 

[medicineman]

And in other news, it is still news that people are not standing up for the anthem......................Like I said before, stop giving them any attention, then it would end. Pay no attention what these jerk offs do off the field.

[The Gipper]

1 minute ago, medicineman said:

And in other news, it is still news that people are not standing up for the anthem......................Like I said before, stop giving them any attention, then it would end. Pay no attention what these jerk offs do off the field.

In other news, a man bit a dog.    This thread is about the motivations of POTUS. If he had done what YOU suggest...we wouldn't be here with all this blather...because HE would have just paid no attention.(you may be smarter than him in that regard)  But he didn't want that. He wanted another opportunity to create division in this country...because he must think somehow it benefits him personally or politically. What I pointed out is that he is just using this protest as an excuse to try to eek out some payback and settle some old grudge that he had with the NFL.  I mean face it.....what does it say about the guy that he has been rejected on 2-3 occasions to join the NFL owners club.   (a number of whom actually supported him prior to this)

[runyon27]

This whole issue is nonsense to me. Kneeling during the anthem is not going to change how police act or make people in government change the way a police dept interacts with the community. Its a useless gesture that will alienate more people against your cause then bring them to it. If you want to really change something of this nature, then as an athlete you have a podium from which you can do things in your community to help bring about these changes you are seeking. Kneeling during the anthem is going to change no ones mind I promise you. As to Trump he should have just well enough alone, those who think kneeling fixes problem should be thanking Trump as he magnified the crap out of this issue with his comments.

[OldBrownsFan]

58 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Welcome to Planet Earth....where  in your version of it you would get a $250  ticket for going 56 in a 55 mph zone!

A judge has discretion in the matter of punishment unless there is a mandatory sentence. He can take in factors such as how fast over the speed limit in his sentencing.  In a case like you describe he may not even give a fine for going one mile over the speed limit and would probably ream out an officer for dragging someone into court over it. A police officer has discretion to give a ticket or a warning over many traffic offenses. The law is not being ignored in either case. Now if you say the NFL is just using discretion in not enforcing a  rule (ignoring it) than why have the rule? Get rid of it. 

[Clevfan4life]

16 hours ago, miktoxic said:

Only fucking snowflakes are those who've never picked up a rock in defense of this country, yet yap and yap about how bad they got it pulling in millions of dollars a year to act, run fast or put a ball through a hoop.

fuck them all.

i am literally done with the NFL and the NBA.

eat a big shitburger lebron. Fuck you Clevefan4life and all the other little queefs who think this is alright.

liberal commie ANTIFA scumbags.

obviously you had no father figure in ur life that taught you the values of what being an American is about.

bye!! spect we won't be seein you round these parts no more then. Ah well. There's always cricket right?

[calfoxwc]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Sometimes, cal, you have to click the little drop down for more meanings in a google search of a word's meaning...

na·tion·al·ist

ˈnaSH(ə)nələst/

noun

noun: nationalist; plural noun: nationalists

1. 1.

   a person who advocates political independence for a country.

   "a Scottish nationalist"

   • a person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others.

 

... or even click on a different resource... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism

Definition of nationalism

1 :loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially :a sense of national consciousness (see consciousness 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

• Intense nationalism was one of the causes of the war.

 

 

no, it made my point better by ignoring the rest of it.

[calfoxwc]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

Cal Fox translation:  I really actually hate the US Constitution unless I can twist it to my own perverted point of view.

Gipper translation:

"I'm mad at Cal because he stands on principle, and I don't have any"

[Clevfan4life]

10 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Gipper translation:

"I'm mad at Cal because he stands on principle, and I don't have any"

you have zero principle cal. I don't think you know what the word means. You get called weekly on multiple inconsistencies, it's completely surreal for you to claim any sort of real principle. 

[The Gipper]

32 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

A judge has discretion in the matter of punishment unless there is a mandatory sentence. He can take in factors such as how fast over the speed limit in his sentencing.  In a case like you describe he may not even give a fine for going one mile over the speed limit and would probably ream out an officer for dragging someone into court over it. A police officer has discretion to give a ticket or a warning over many traffic offenses. The law is not being ignored in either case. Now if you say the NFL is just using discretion in not enforcing a  rule (ignoring it) than why have the rule? Get rid of it. 

Take it from a Judge....a judge will not "ream out" an officer for issuing a ticket like that.  He might privately/discreetly question him to get to understand why such a thing could happen. 

But, you see, you are not being consistent....the police officer has discretion to ignore the speed limit....and we are not going to get rid of speed limits, are we?   The NFL may have a rule...and if they use discretion to ignore that rule...how is that different from the speed situation? Its not.  

The only "violation" of any NFL rule that I am aware of is the fact that a rule says the team shall be on the field....and the Steelers were not. Maybe like the police officer the NFL gave the Steelers a warning.  That may have been done privately and discreetly as well.

I mean, also....there is a rule that says holding is a penalty...yet holding probably occurs on every play.  Would you want every non critical holding called?  Games would last until midnight.  

[DieHardBrownsFan]

4 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Take it from a Judge....a judge will not "ream out" an officer for issuing a ticket like that.  He might privately/discreetly question him to get to understand why such a thing could happen. 

But, you see, you are not being consistent....the police officer has discretion to ignore the speed limit....and we are not going to get rid of speed limits, are we?   The NFL may have a rule...and if they use discretion to ignore that rule...how is that different from the speed situation? Its not.  

The only "violation" of any NFL rule that I am aware of is the fact that a rule says the team shall be on the field....and the Steelers were not. Maybe like the police officer the NFL gave the Steelers a warning.  That may have been done privately and discreetly as well.

I mean, also....there is a rule that says holding is a penalty...yet holding probably occurs on every play.  Would you want every non critical holding called?  Games would last until midnight.  

You get very old reading.  Please go on a tour of some fucking city.  By the way, did you ever know a Police Officer in Barberton by the name of Kenny Sakich?

[The Gipper]

49 minutes ago, runyon27 said:

This whole issue is nonsense to me. Kneeling during the anthem is not going to change how police act or make people in government change the way a police dept interacts with the community. Its a useless gesture that will alienate more people against your cause then bring them to it. If you want to really change something of this nature, then as an athlete you have a podium from which you can do things in your community to help bring about these changes you are seeking. Kneeling during the anthem is going to change no ones mind I promise you. As to Trump he should have just well enough alone, those who think kneeling fixes problem should be thanking Trump as he magnified the crap out of this issue with his comments.

Where if anywhere did you see where Trump made any gesture, statement, comment etc. on the initial problem that led to the protests?   Has he ever addressed the issue of (alleged) police brutality in the minority community?   (I doubt seriously that he has...or cares......but please surprise me by showing  that he has addressed this problem)

[OldBrownsFan]

I used to work for a judge Gip who had a bit of a temper and it would come out at times on the bench and I could see him doing that. He also was a democrat judge but I had a lot of respect for him even if I disagreed with his politics. I learned a lot about the law and the judicial system in general from him. 

On another point you were making though about Trump having better things to do then being  involved in the NFL anthem controversy I would tend to agree except the media are pure hypocrites about it. The White House has a press conference and 2/3rds of the questions are about Trump's comments about the NFL and then the media turn around and complain Trump is too focused on it? 

[wargograw]

I think Gipper just has a rolodex of points that he likes to make. 

[wargograw]

4 hours ago, The Gipper said:

So? Should anyone who want to exercise their free speech do that?   Like say, people who want to protest against abortion?  Or Nazis and KKK who want to protest the removal of CSA statues?  Or anti-war protestors, or  how about all those disabled people who were at the Capitol protesting over the health care issue. How about veterans group who protest over their treatment?    How about the Tea Party guys?   I mean the 1773 Tea Party guys.

What about Violent Protestors?  There have been  a number.  What about these guys...violent protestors:

http://www.battleroad.org/

 

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Should? Bit haughty for a regular guy...

I'm good with them staying and trying to make the country a better place.

 

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 

By that same line of thinking I should dump my girlfriend because she isn't Lacey Chabert. 

People don't realize how dumb it sounds until they get a counter example. 

Thanks for making my point for me tia. The whole "if you don't like the kneelers, just stop watching football" argument is just as stupid as saying "you don't like the country, move out!" I didn't say I personally was making that argument. I'm pointing out the absurdity.

[The Gipper]

28 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Gipper translation:

"I'm mad at Cal because he stands on principle, and I don't have any"

Principles? What principles?  We already established that you don't like our Constitution unless it is applied to a matter that you are favor of.  That is not principles....that is just neurosis.

Here is a principle I stand on:  "I recognize another person's right to take a stance or have a point of view and to demonstrate his opinion thereon, even if I disagree with them".  

Can you say the same?

And I don't get mad...I just point out facts.  Sorry if the facts don't make you feel good about yourself. 

[The Gipper]

2 minutes ago, wargograw said:

 

 

Thanks for making my point for me tia. The whole "if you don't like the kneelers, just stop watching football" argument is just as stupid as saying "you don't like the country, move out!" I didn't say I personally was making that argument. I'm pointing out the absurdity.

OK, fair enough....but how did my quote get in there?

[wargograw]

Because it was a response to me.

[The Gipper]

16 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

You get very old reading.  Please go on a tour of some fucking city.  By the way, did you ever know a Police Officer in Barberton by the name of Kenny Sakich?

  And no, I don't think I know that officer...but the name sounds a bit familiar. I was never magistrate in Barberton (except for occasional fill ins before they got a full timer in their)  So the police I know best are from other communities.

[The Gipper]

14 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

I used to work for a judge Gip who had a bit of a temper and it would come out at times on the bench and I could see him doing that. He also was a democrat judge but I had a lot of respect for him even if I disagreed with his politics. I learned a lot about the law and the judicial system in general from him. 

From around here? NE Ohio?  I remember a Judge from early on in my career from Medina County.  He was Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.  Half the time he was jovial and smiling, the other half he was surly and belligerent...for no apparent reason.  Believe it or not, I am very mild mannered...maybe too much so.  I think in 27 years of doing this I displayed temper maybe 2-3 times.   And I only remember one of them.  An older gentleman would NOT be quiet after I instructed him to listen 2-3 times.  I have never held anyone in contempt...that time came the closest.  (and what did you do?)  

On another point you were making though about Trump having better things to do then being  involved in the NFL anthem controversy I would tend to agree except the media are pure hypocrites about it. The White House has a press conference and 2/3rds of the questions are about Trump's comments about the NFL and then the media turn around and complain Trump is too focused on it? 

Well, sorry, but he fueled that fire. Most media is like Trump....obsessed with ratings.  (Why would Trump care about the NFL ratings?  He still thinks he is a TV game show host/producer).