Kiser not the reason folks.

[calfoxwc]

that feeble hail mary hurl up into the air was an embarrassment. Kizer brainfreezes under pressure - he only sees

one place, can't scan the field for best options. He isn't a dumb guy, but he just doesn't see the field. He'll be a

good/great backup, but the Browns need a real qb. 

 

[Clevfan4life]

21 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Easily Kizer's best game... kid was in command for 3/4's of the game.

The late 1st half INT was not a bad idea, but it was a bad throw.

The OT INT was a bad idea... as someone said on page 1... it was "inexcusable"... but it was also understandable.

This was the first time Kizer and the team were in the positions they were in today... namely having a "comfortable" lead late and playing an OT game.

I honestly was not surprised that they did not handle either circumstance well.

I will be surprised if when next they encounter either next, that they do not handle it better.

For a guy who "knows" football how are you giving Kizer a pass on that throw across the field from his weakside straight into oncoming pass rush? "Especially" for a guy we know full well has been yelled at by his coach for holding the ball for hours at a time while running around in the backfield..??? This is a season long affair that this has been going on. You can see hue's face every time....it's omg he's doing it again. You can see it plain as day in the replays when they show hue's crestfallen mug.......this has been the subject of weekly film room sessions, no doubt. Yet the kid still does it every time he's under pressure. He wasn't ready and chip Kelly knew it....there is ZERO doubt in my mind that Hue had a talk with Chip and was told all about this before the season began. This is the reason Kelly said Kizer wasn't ready. 

[BrownPile]

6 hours ago, BaconHound said:

This is the modern NFL.  The days of drafting Aaron Rodgers and sitting him behind Favre are gone.  Goff, Wentz, Watson, Carr, etc. are all expected to play after being drafted.  20 years ago you'd kept Mccown and let Kizer sit and learn but not anymore.

And this mentality has been proven to be completely wrong over and over in the last <you pick how many> years.

This method DOES NOT WORK.

Keep doing this and it leads to coaches/GMs getting fired and drafting/starting another QB, then another, then another, then another... then you are the 'modern' Browns.

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

that feeble hail mary hurl up into the air was an embarrassment.

You do know his arm was hit... or don't you?

[Tour2ma]

48 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said:

there is ZERO doubt in my mind...

Ah... so therefore it's a fact...

not just a strongly held notion...

no matter how ill-founded...

got it.

51 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said:

For a guy who "knows" football how are you giving Kizer a pass on that throw across the field from his weakside straight into oncoming pass rush?

Give me game time so I can look and get an idea what play you are talking about. Can't be either of the INTs I mentioned since I criticized both of those throws.

[calfoxwc]

6 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

You do know his arm was hit... or don't you?

actually, I don't - we had out second Thanksgiving yesterday, and I went to the kitchen for more whole berry cranberry sauce,

and saw the replay as I came back into the tv room. I have to go back and rewatch it entirely. But Kizer still didn't throw to

a WIDE OPEN target - because he never looked. He see the whole field = I figure that is why he gets in trouble - first read covered...

just wait until maybe first read gets open....

[Browns1216]

next year will be rookie QB, Kizer and McCarron.  I hope Kizer starts, we've all seen McCarron and I don't think Kizer has hit his ceiling yet.  Can't take another season of rookie mistakes.  Kizer has shown he's willing to work hard and improve, if he keeps the trend going and has a decent off season we could finally see some reliable QB play in Cleveland.  It sucks for Kizer because after he throws his first interception everyone will be clamoring for the #1 draft pick rookie to get out there before he's ready, he will make rookie mistakes, the Browns will draft another rookie QB the following season and the cycle will continue. 

[cdl15]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

actually, I don't - we had out second Thanksgiving yesterday, and I went to the kitchen for more whole berry cranberry sauce,

and saw the replay as I came back into the tv room. I have to go back and rewatch it entirely. But Kizer still didn't throw to

a WIDE OPEN target - because he never looked. He see the whole field = I figure that is why he gets in trouble - first read covered...

just wait until maybe first read gets open....

I don't buy that. People say some stupid Sheet to try to look smart. "He locks on receiver" or "once his primary is covered BS" 

 

He hit 8 different players for a completion yesterday and targeted 9 altogether. I have seen very good pocket awareness and much improved footwork. Does he hold the ball to long?? Sure almost every rookie QB ever has that problem transitioning to the pros. But the kid keeps his eyes down field constantly. Never bails early and when he does is very very dangerous in open field.

 

And for all the idiots out there. Yea that was a bad pick. That's what happens when u get hot while throwing on a blown up play. But he knew where he wanted to go with that ball. Him pointing the guy out and replay is 100% proof there was a WR running free behind the secondary. If he had just a split second longer there is a chance we are talking about easily the play of the year possibility the decade. But instead it was just another INT that people wanna hang on the 21 year old kid with the most weapons we've seen in Cleveland since Tim Couch. Can't stand the morons blasting Kiser and Haven't even mentioned David Njoku dropping a absolute bullseye to end the game. Had he caught that Kiser's Line is 19-26 w/ 220+ yards 3TDs 1 INT (meaningless one at that. And one ever single qb would probably throw in that situation).  And 120+ passer rating. And most importantly the W. Instead his passer rating was what 99? Sure QBs gotta overcome but in any team sport when you give a team 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tries it's going to end well. Especially for an 0-12 team that has to basically play flawless.  And sure his decision making late has been brutal. It's where he needs to improve the most. But when when your asking that guy to do it twice or 3 times instead of once. There is 1 qb in the whole league that can overcome his teams incompetence and it's not Kiser right now. 

 

We need Kiser to make a play to close out games. He made that play yesterday, unfortunately it was dropped. And 13 games into a 21 year olds Career is asking a bit much to do it 2 or three times a game.

[The Gipper]

He played well .....but, it seems that when he sees the game clock hit like 2:00.....he suffers from Dysphagia

 

[Browns1216]

31 minutes ago, cdl15 said:

I don't buy that. People say some stupid Sheet to try to look smart. "He locks on receiver" or "once his primary is covered BS" 

 

He hit 8 different players for a completion yesterday and targeted 9 altogether. I have seen very good pocket awareness and much improved footwork. Does he hold the ball to long?? Sure almost every rookie QB ever has that problem transitioning to the pros. But the kid keeps his eyes down field constantly. Never bails early and when he does is very very dangerous in open field.

 

And for all the idiots out there. Yea that was a bad pick. That's what happens when u get hot while throwing on a blown up play. But he knew where he wanted to go with that ball. Him pointing the guy out and replay is 100% proof there was a WR running free behind the secondary. If he had just a split second longer there is a chance we are talking about easily the play of the year possibility the decade. But instead it was just another INT that people wanna hang on the 21 year old kid with the most weapons we've seen in Cleveland since Tim Couch. Can't stand the morons blasting Kiser and Haven't even mentioned David Njoku dropping a absolute bullseye to end the game. Had he caught that Kiser's Line is 19-26 w/ 220+ yards 3TDs 1 INT (meaningless one at that. And one ever single qb would probably throw in that situation).  And 120+ passer rating. And most importantly the W. Instead his passer rating was what 99? Sure QBs gotta overcome but in any team sport when you give a team 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tries it's going to end well. Especially for an 0-12 team that has to basically play flawless.  And sure his decision making late has been brutal. It's where he needs to improve the most. But when when your asking that guy to do it twice or 3 times instead of once. There is 1 qb in the whole league that can overcome his teams incompetence and it's not Kiser right now. 

 

We need Kiser to make a play to close out games. He made that play yesterday, unfortunately it was dropped. And 13 games into a 21 year olds Career is asking a bit much to do it 2 or three times a game.

I keep forgetting Kizer is only 21, night and day difference between his work ethic and another young QB we've had in the past... 

Look how much better the chemistry was between him and Gordon was between these last two games, after only a week of them working together.  imagine a whole season of them working together (assuming Gordon can stay off the weed).  Yes, he held on to the ball too long on some plays, but on other plays he got the ball right where it needed to be quickly.  Just picture if he keeps working hard and improving the way he has all season. 

For sure this FO will draft a QB in the first round, would love to see them use the other first round pick on a WR who can play opposite Gordon.  Kizer will eventually get a win (hopefully next Sunday), he's not good enough to carry this team but I don't think anyone but the Browns would expect that of a 2nd round drafted rookie QB.  Next season he may be good enough to win with his arm, overcome mistakes and drag this team to some wins despite mistakes from defense and special teams.  Get the Browns a decent OC who can actually make halftime adjustments and finish a game and I'm thinking Super Bowl champs 2019 

[The Gipper]

What responsibility should we put on QB coach David Lee for Kizer's constant choking....and failure to learn from his mistakes?

[D Bone]

3 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

What responsibility should we put on QB coach David Lee for Kizer's constant choking....and failure to learn from his mistakes?

I like him a lot better than Sammy...... not even close. 

[TopDawg31]

Neither Kizer nor Hue can function under pressure. 

[stillmotion]

1 hour ago, TopDawg31 said:

Neither Kizer nor Hue can function under pressure. 

Hue and Kizer may not be the reasons, but they surely aren’t the answers either.

[calfoxwc]

I didn't say it to look smart. I never played - but that isn't the only time I've watched him throw to the first receiver  he looks at, and never looks to the other third of the field. I like him, but I think he doesn't see the entire field - doesn't even look. It....is.....on.....tape. Tour is correct - I didn't see the play, just major bits and pieces, just a glimpse of the replay - as far as other things go,

Kizer seemed to turn the corner just a bit- with the addition of Gordon actually on the field, which turned out great to see. We had to laugh at the coach giving him a pair of sunglesses back on the sidelines. That had to be just for fun... I don't see a veteran qb cominghere to not start...

  BTW, watching other college qbs ... several of them survey the freaking field from one side to the other very quickly - whenZizer doesn't, it's that a logical appraisal to guess at that he may have that as a problem, since none of us is an expert?

   Should be real interesting to watch some of the major qbs play bowl games.

[cdl15]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

What responsibility should we put on QB coach David Lee for Kizer's constant choking....and failure to learn from his mistakes?

I don't see as many mistakes this part of season. The biggest pressure play of yesterday game and Kiser delivered an absolute strike

[Tour2ma]

5 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

actually, I don't - we had out second Thanksgiving yesterday, and I went to the kitchen for more whole berry cranberry sauce, and saw the replay as I came back into the tv room. I have to go back and rewatch it entirely.

But Kizer still didn't throw to a WIDE OPEN target - because he never looked. He see the whole field = I figure that is why he gets in trouble - first read covered... just wait until maybe first read gets open....

When you look you will see that Clay hit Kizer's right forearm a lil shy of his release point. That's why the throw ended up being a 20-yd flutterball.

What would have happened had Kizer gotten off the throw he wanted to make? Can't be sure... I only know Kizer pointed down-field in lamentation as if he had a deep target in his sights... but my gut was that his footwork meant the ball would have been a moon-shot that would have come up short.

As for Kizer's read progressions... I see them. I also see him staying with his first read, but that's because he is liking what he sees. While he is still a beat slow in gauging his receiver's speed/direction, it's not the problem it once was unless another delay is added. I think this was the case with his 1st-half INT when there was further delay as he stepped up in the pocket still locked on his target.

55 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

I didn't say it to look smart.

So tempting... but I knew that.

I thought cdl went off and it wasn't deserved...

Of course, I've never done that...

[The Gipper]

What responsibility should we put on QB coach David Lee for Kizer's constant choking....and failure to learn from his mistakes?

I like him a lot better than Sammy...... not even close. 

You like him a lot better than Sammy who?

[cdl15]

22 hours ago, SD_Tom said:

Kizer didn't decide to start himself. Whether  it was Hue, or it was Sashi, it was a horrible decision. Same with the decision to dump all veteran QB's. Trubisky, Watson, Mahomes, Wentz, and Goff all planned on being sat for game 1. Wentz only got in there because they traded Bradford. Regardless, he was clearly more prepared to be a starter than Kizer was/is. When every single scouting report states "Kizer needs to sit and learn he's NOT READY" and you decide to start him game 1 with no other experienced QB on the roster.

Then Hue has him throwing 40+ times a game when he can't perform at an NFL level.

FYI- It's Brian Kelly at ND. 

And has progressed alot from the first 3 weeks of the season. And it seems like he's self tutored. No Offense coordinator, head coach, or veteran qb to bounch Sheet off of when the defense is on the field. TBO I was expecting Johnny Manziel vs Cincy every week out but he's been a nice surprise and more durable than any browns qb in recent memory. How easily he could have started every game this year but Hue is the "qb whisperer". Honestly at this point if hue says he's not the guy I'm locking the kid in to the future of this team. That's how much I don't trust Jackson anymore. I have no doubt in my mind Jackson manipulates and tanks players, plays, and games till he gets what he wants.

[Dutch Oven]

18 minutes ago, cdl15 said:

And has progressed alot from the first 3 weeks of the season. And it seems like he's self tutored. No Offense coordinator, head coach, or veteran qb to bounch Sheet off of when the defense is on the field. TBO I was expecting Johnny Manziel vs Cincy every week out but he's been a nice surprise and more durable than any browns qb in recent memory. How easily he could have started every game this year but Hue is the "qb whisperer". Honestly at this point if hue says he's not the guy I'm locking the kid in to the future of this team. That's how much I don't trust Jackson anymore. I have no doubt in my mind Jackson manipulates and tanks players, plays, and games till he gets what he wants.

Thank you.

I don't know if Kizer will ever be a decent starting QB in the NFL.

I do know that he was drafted by most likely the WORST team he could have been drafted by. He had no business leaving school early, and he gets drafted by a team that, of course, decides to pair him with no veteran QB on a team where the HC is also the OC (denying him time on the sideline to talk with his OC because his OC is also bumbling his way through being a HC) and start him from Day 1 with an abysmal collection of WRs to throw to. 

The Browns set Kizer up to fail. The Process completely ignored the most important position on the roster for two seasons.

[Clevfan4life]

3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Thank you.

I don't know if Kizer will ever be a decent starting QB in the NFL.

I do know that he was drafted by most likely the WORST team he could have been drafted by. He had no business leaving school early, and he gets drafted by a team that, of course, decides to pair him with no veteran QB on a team where the HC is also the OC (denying him time on the sideline to talk with his OC because his OC is also bumbling his way through being a HC) and start him from Day 1 with an abysmal collection of WRs to throw to. 

The Browns set Kizer up to fail. The Process completely ignored the most important position on the roster for two seasons.

well, THis^^^

How anybody can look at the things that have transpired on the field this year and not understand that Kizer should have been tied up in the lockeroom all season.....I just don't know. It's absolutely true that this organization was the last one in football that had any business drafting a project like kizer. We have almost no track record of really developing talent. Guys that end up playing well for us usually were already ahead of the pack in college. I have zero doubt at this point tom brady would have been selling insurance or hosting some local access program for years now had the browns drafted him

[Zombo]

On 12/10/2017 at 5:01 PM, cdl15 said:

How do you sum the game up today??

Me. I say Kiser played great. He made the perfect pass to win the game and his TE Njoku dropped the ball to lose the game. And Hundley made a mistake (dangerous) or bad pass that his guy made a play on the ball and walked into the end zone to end the game.

 

If your answer is Brown's lost because of Kiser today then you absolutely will never deserve a winning team in Cleveland. 

 

I am not defending the bad INT but it is the very last reason and honestly the smallest reason the browns lost today.  If Kiser plays like he did today then the browns will have a chance to win every game the rest of the year. But we all know they will be drafting another qb next year and he absolutely deserves no time to progress. I absolutely expect a guy to come out game one and absolutely dominant games. I'm talking probowl or bust. That is the browns MO.

I don't BLAME him for struggling, he's a 21 year old kid on a bad team learning the hard way. He could still become a very good QB.

But his mistakes are have been dreadful, and have cost us many games. We are easily a 4-12, 5-11 team with a decent veteran QB. He is setting the new standard for red zone turnovers, and even when he has a "good" game, a costly mistake ensues with all the chips on the line.

There is a lot about him I like. But he has cost a shit ton of games this year. But it is a wasted year anyway, so the draft picks get better and now, hopefully, we have the right guy making the picks. Hopefully he wins one of these last three, I think he has worked hard and WANTS to win very badly.

Zombo

[jiggins7919]

14 minutes ago, Zombo said:

I don't BLAME him for struggling, he's a 21 year old kid on a bad team learning the hard way. He could still become a very good QB.

But his mistakes are have been dreadful, and have cost us many games. We are easily a 4-12, 5-11 team with a decent veteran QB. He is setting the new standard for red zone turnovers, and even when he has a "good" game, a costly mistake ensues with all the chips on the line.

There is a lot about him I like. But he has cost a Sheet ton of games this year. But it is a wasted year anyway, so the draft picks get better and now, hopefully, we have the right guy making the picks. Hopefully he wins one of these last three, I think he has worked hard and WANTS to win very badly.

Zombo

 

It's difficult to argue with you about Kizer's mistakes being dreadful.  That pick in overtime absolutely crushed us, but you know what REALLY has hurt us this year besides his mistakes?  Our defense's inability to get turnovers.  In fact, I don't even remember the last one we FORCED, do you?  We drop virtually every interception, we don't ever seem to recover fumbles, and we don't help our young QB.  Yeah, Kizer's turnovers have crushed us this year, but our defense didn't do much to help.  Neither did our special teams for THAT matter.  We have one of the worst turnover ratios I've ever seen this year.  Much of that is obviously due to Kizer, but not ALL of it.  I don't know how many turnovers we caused last year, but I HAVE to believe it was more than this year's crappy effort.  

[cdl15]

1 hour ago, Zombo said:

I don't BLAME him for struggling, he's a 21 year old kid on a bad team learning the hard way. He could still become a very good QB.

But his mistakes are have been dreadful, and have cost us many games. We are easily a 4-12, 5-11 team with a decent veteran QB. He is setting the new standard for red zone turnovers, and even when he has a "good" game, a costly mistake ensues with all the chips on the line.

There is a lot about him I like. But he has cost a Sheet ton of games this year. But it is a wasted year anyway, so the draft picks get better and now, hopefully, we have the right guy making the picks. Hopefully he wins one of these last three, I think he has worked hard and WANTS to win very badly.

Zombo

+1 I just feel his short comings are easily fixed with experience and coaching. He really reminds me of cam Newton without all the baggage. He might even throw a better ball and isn't apt to run as much as cam did his rookie year.

[Canton Dawg]

20 hours ago, The Gipper said:

What responsibility should we put on QB coach David Lee for Kizer's constant choking....and failure to learn from his mistakes?

I like him a lot better than Sammy...... not even close. 

You like him a lot better than Sammy who?

I believe he's referring to Sammy Hagar since you mentioned David Lee.

[Canton Dawg]

I'm not going to rag on Kizer too much, he's still a kid and the best QB on the roster.

He's still a little slow finding the open receiver.

 

[hoorta]

8 minutes ago, Canton Dawg said:

I'm not going to rag on Kizer too much, he's still a kid and the best QB on the roster.

He's still a little slow finding the open receiver.

 

Damn! Talk about locking on your primary read. Brady hits the other totally uncovered guy for an easy first down. 

[Tour2ma]

How to contradict yourself in two consecutive sentences

by Dutch Oven.

15 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

The Browns set Kizer up to fail. The Process completely ignored the most important position on the roster for two seasons.

 

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

I believe he's referring to Sammy Hagar since you mentioned David Lee.

OK....I get it.  Actually a very good one that went over my head.  Kudos on that.

[Tour2ma]

3 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

I'm not going to rag on Kizer too much, he's still a kid and the best QB on the roster. He's still a little slow finding the open receiver.

3 hours ago, hoorta said:

Damn! Talk about locking on your primary read. Brady hits the other totally uncovered guy for an easy first down. 

Sorry, guys.... not a matter of "speed" or "locking on".

This is a designed one-step drop from the gun. That means it is a quick pass. That means you go with where your pre-snap read tells you to go unless you pick something at the snap. There is no time to survey... no time to go thru your progressions. It's a one and done play.

Here's the pre-snap look. Note that there's is an LB shaded to Devalve, a DB crossing over him and a Safety pointing at him. Is that your primary? Njoku is the proper read here... but things change.

Here's the look immediately following the snap. The LB is blitzing. The DB is rotating to Duke. The Safety is still pointing. If a QB sees this action he goes to his "hot read", Devalve. Kizer is looking to catch the snap... as he should be and does not see the blitz coming. The LB has timed his move well.

And here is what Kizer sees when he turns to his pre-snap read... a TE about to cross the face of his coverage and be NFL Open.

 

It is not that Kizer is blameless here. I saw a couple things I did not like in this play.

• First, that he crouches so low to receive the snap. What ever chance he might have at 6'4 to glimpse the blitz coming at the snap was wiped out by crouching so low. At 5'9 Duke reacted very quickly to the 2nd blitzer, but he wasn't having to catch the snap. I need to see if this crouching is an every shotgun thing.
• Second, he is still phucking patting the ball. This is a critical 0.3 or 0.4 seconds lost and the shorter the pass, the more critical the loss. Aided by the pat the near DE almost batted down the pass. The DB definitely benefited by even the slight delay.
• Third, and this is as likely on Hue as it is on Kizer, the snap came with 1 second on the play clock. Why the big deal? If you watched the SNF game, BLT @ PTG, then you saw a critical situation late where Ben barked out a count and got the Ravens D to tip their hand. Then with 9 seconds left he adjusted his protection and the play worked. When have we ever seen Kizer with the time to do this?

So there are points to critique, but, guys, let's pick the right ones.

Oh... and it looked to me like the DB interfered with Njoku... very cleverly I might add. We all know how the Backjudge looks to see if the off arm hooks the receiver (usually around the waist) while the front arm reaches to bat down the ball? It's easy to see that back arm if it hooks. Well in this play the DB did the opposite grabbing Njoku's left arm and side with his left (front) arm, which the Backjudge could not see, while bringing his visible right arm over the top. Close play, but the grab was definitely before the ball arrived.