Kiser not the reason folks.

[Clevfan4life]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

How to contradict yourself in two consecutive sentences

by Dutch Oven.

 

Well "i think" dutch's point is that drafting kizer was essentially still ignoring the position. Taking a project flyer in the 2nd on a kid who's own college coach told the nfl "now dont u go out and do it now, dont u do it"....prob isnt being serious about addressing the situation. 

I personally am still ok with the pick, if he had worked out...if he didnt have these yips that will never leave him.....that could have been nice for us. Its time to go get a #1 tho

[Tour2ma]

1 minute ago, Clevfan4life said:

Well "i think" dutch's point is that drafting kizer was essentially still ignoring the position. Taking a project flyer in the 2nd on a kid who's own college coach told the nfl "now dont u go out and do it now, dont u do it"....prob isnt being serious about addressing the situation. 

I personally am still ok with the pick, if he had worked out...if he didnt have these yips that will never leave him.....that could have been nice for us. Its time to go get a #1 tho

Absolutely agree that was the intended point, but since I disagree with the point and his intent was not reflected in his post...

[Clevfan4life]

2 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Sorry, guys.... not a matter of "speed" or "locking on".

This is a designed one-step drop from the gun. That means it is a quick pass. That means you go with where your pre-snap read tells you to go unless you pick something at the snap. There is not time to survey... to go thru your progressions.

Here's the pre-snap look. Note that there's is an LB shaded to Devalve, a DB crossing over him and a Safety pointing at him. Is that your primary? Njoku is the proper read here... but things change.

Here's the look immediately following the snap. The LB is blitzing. The DB is rotating to Duke. The Safety is still pointing. If a QB sees this action he goes to his "hot read", Devalve. Kizer is looking to catch the snap... as he should be and does not see the blitz coming. The LB has timed his move well.

And here is what Kizer sees when he turns to his pre-snap read... a TE about to cross the face of his coverage and be NFL Open.

 

It is not that Kizer is blameless here. I saw a couple things I did not like in this play.

• First, that he crouches so low to receive the snap. What ever chance he might have at 6'4 to glimpse the blitz coming at the snap was wiped out by crouching so low. At 5'9 Duke reacted very quickly to the 2nd blitzer, but he wasn't having to catch the snap. I need to see if this crouching is an every shotgun thing.
• Second, he is still phucking patting the ball. This is a critical 0.3 or 0.4 seconds lost and the shorter the pass, the more critical the loss. Aided by the pat the near DE almost batted down the pass. The DB definitely benefited by even the slight delay.
• Third, and this is as likely on Hue as it is on Kizer, the snap came with 1 second on the play clock. Why the big deal? If you watched the SNF game, BLT @ PTG, then you saw a critical situation late where Ben barked out a count and got the Ravens D to tip their hand. Then with 9 seconds left he adjusted his protection and the play worked. When have we ever seen Kizer with the time to do this?

So there are points to critique, but, guys, let's pick the right ones.

Oh... and it looked to me like the DB interfered with Njoku... very cleverly I might add. We all know how the Backjudge looks to see if the off arm hooks the receiver (usually around the waist) while the front arm reaches to bat down the ball? It's easy to see that back arm if it hooks. Well in this play the DB did the opposite grabbing Njoku's left arm and side with his left (front) arm, which the Backjudge could not see, while bringing his visible right arm over the top. Close play, but the grab was definitely before the ball arrived.

Thats the kind of knowledgeable analysis this board needs a sht ton more of. Id like to see ur take on that last throw....what did kizer see? Or think he saw whatever. 

[Mark O]

4 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

Thats the kind of knowledgeable analysis this board needs a sht ton more of. Id like to see ur take on that last throw....what did kizer see? Or think he saw whatever. 

You're not going to like the answer because I've read it on another thread but I'll let Tour answer. 

[Mark O]

4 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Sorry, guys.... not a matter of "speed" or "locking on".

This is a designed one-step drop from the gun. That means it is a quick pass. That means you go with where your pre-snap read tells you to go unless you pick something at the snap. There is no time to survey... no time to go thru your progressions. It's a one and done play.

Here's the pre-snap look. Note that there's is an LB shaded to Devalve, a DB crossing over him and a Safety pointing at him. Is that your primary? Njoku is the proper read here... but things change.

 

It's the kind of play that I've seen the Seahawks run with Jimmy Graham.  Now Njoku isn't on Grahams level at this point but he does fit that mold of a big, athletic, strong TE and he should be able to fend off the smaller DB.  Seattle runs it a lot near the goal line and its nearly impossible to stop and this play was as well.  As you say..the DB interfered with him and I still think Njoku should've caught a really well thrown ball.

[Dutch Oven]

6 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

How to contradict yourself in two consecutive sentences

by Dutch Oven.

 

Not at all.

The Process was allegedly about doing things the right way for the long term success of the Browns franchise. Nothing the Browns did concerning the QB position in these last two seasons has put them an iota closer to long term success.

[Tour2ma]

19 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Not at all.

The Process was allegedly about doing things the right way for the long term success of the Browns franchise. Nothing the Browns did concerning the QB position in these last two seasons has put them an iota closer to long term success.

Point was we drafted Kizer. Can't do that and "completely ignore" the QB position.

On 12/12/2017 at 2:26 PM, Clevfan4life said:

Thats the kind of knowledgeable analysis this board needs a sht ton more of.

Id like to see ur take on that last throw....what did kizer see? Or think he saw whatever. 

Thanks... but more than knowledge it's just stopping to look. Something posted, or I think, doesn't "ring true" and I take a look. Speaking of which... I am not sure my own characterization of "one-step drop" rings true... but nothing to look at in this case... just not sure why you'd design a one-step drop from the gun...

I think my earlier reply to which Mark refers on the last throw was that I have no clue. I only know that after the play he was gesturing as if he had spotted someone fairly deep... much deeper than the throw ended up traveling because Mathews hit his right-forearm.

That said, given that he tried to launch that ball with his feet parallel to the LOS... I have serous doubt it would have gone as far as he was trying to throw it.

[wargograw]

On 12/11/2017 at 9:26 PM, Dutch Oven said:

Pettine deserved way better than he got from this organization.

Round 1 of the 2014 Browns draft is case in point.

Wasn't he elated about Gilbert?

 

[Dutch Oven]

27 minutes ago, wargograw said:

Wasn't he elated about Gilbert?

 

He was a head coach who probably asked Farmer to get him a big CB, because his defensive system called for it. On paper, Farmer delivered, so Pettine was probably happy.

Then he had to coach him, and probably very quickly (and from what I recall it wasn't real hard to sense Pettine's frustration with Gilbert) realized that he was given a dud.

[SD_Tom]

Pettine was dealt an incredibly shitty hand with those drafts. 

[TopDawg31]

I think it's time to get on the Baker Mayfield train, all aboard!

[D Bone]

10 hours ago, SD_Tom said:

Pettine was dealt an incredibly shitty hand with those drafts. 

For sure. I liked Pet and his willingness to answer an asked question without the typical coach speak...... If only he would've taken control of that defense, he may still be here.

..... ahhhh, who am I kidding, he would still be one of many ex Browns head coaches. 

[jrb12711]

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/939967117339910144

You're right, Kizer's the GOAT. Hue really Shmucked him on that, I'm sure he was yelling at him through the headset or something. It's also not like he continues to make these terrible mistakes despite having almost a full season under his belt. Nah, Shmuck Hue.

[Tour2ma]

21 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

He was a head coach who probably asked Farmer to get him a big CB, because his defensive system called for it. On paper, Farmer delivered, so Pettine was probably happy.

Then he had to coach him, and probably very quickly (and from what I recall it wasn't real hard to sense Pettine's frustration with Gilbert) realized that he was given a dud.

And then Pet asked, "Ray, can I have a Center to replace Mack?"

[Unsympathetic]

In the two games with Gordon back in the lineup, Kizer has a 93.7 passer rating when targeting Gordon and a 43.6 passer rating when targeting any other WR

 

During the first 11 weeks of the season, Kizer’s 68.9 passer rating when kept clean ranked dead last. However, over the past three games, Kizer's 104.8 passer rating when kept clean ranks 13th.

[Nero]

30 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

In the two games with Gordon back in the lineup, Kizer has a 93.7 passer rating when targeting Gordon and a 43.6 passer rating when targeting any other WR

 

During the first 11 weeks of the season, Kizer’s 68.9 passer rating when kept clean ranked dead last. However, over the past three games, Kizer's 104.8 passer rating when kept clean ranks 13th.

Honest question here: what does mean 'when kept clean'?

[Babernakle]

On 12/10/2017 at 5:01 PM, cdl15 said:

How do you sum the game up today??

Me. I say Kiser played great. He made the perfect pass to win the game and his TE Njoku dropped the ball to lose the game. And Hundley made a mistake (dangerous) or bad pass that his guy made a play on the ball and walked into the end zone to end the game.

 

If your answer is Brown's lost because of Kiser today then you absolutely will never deserve a winning team in Cleveland. 

 

I am not defending the bad INT but it is the very last reason and honestly the smallest reason the browns lost today.  If Kiser plays like he did today then the browns will have a chance to win every game the rest of the year. But we all know they will be drafting another qb next year and he absolutely deserves no time to progress. I absolutely expect a guy to come out game one and absolutely dominant games. I'm talking probowl or bust. That is the browns MO.

What? He made two bone head passes that got intercepted.  One right before the half that would have resulted in no less than a field goal attempt, that would have one the game in regulation and the second in ot.  The game is to fast and he makes poor decisions period.  Also his college coaches said he wasn't ready. 

[Babernakle]

Here is the difference between kiser and a great qb.  Kiser throws to the open man.  In the NFL there is rarely an open man.  A great qb throws the man open something kiser can not do maybe in time but I really doubt it.  And his accuracy is very suspect if at all.  

[wargograw]

2 hours ago, Nero said:

Honest question here: what does mean 'when kept clean'?

Not pressured.

[Tour2ma]

On 12/12/2017 at 2:26 PM, Clevfan4life said:

 Id like to see ur take on that last throw....what did kizer see? Or think he saw whatever. 

And we now have an answer...

Reportedly that's Crow at the top... all alone...

[Clevfan4life]

But tour he threw back across to his right. So he passed on crow which was the sideline throw, and decided to throw to "sonething" back across the middle. Those guys are covered solid. That picture in my eyes just made that throw infinitely worse.This pic is still 1-2 seconds before he threw so those guys are gonna be further downfield, they're about 30 now. 

[Clevfan4life]

This pic should disgust all of u. Kizer as he's rolling to the left sideline passes on a WIDE open crowell for a sure TD if he catches it. 

[gumby73]

Kizer has no visual lane to see Crow.Could have thrown 2 guys open just past midfield...thanks tour, that’s a good look

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, gumby73 said:

Kizer has no visual lane to see Crow.Could have thrown 2 guys open just past midfield...thanks tour, that’s a good look

Yup... plenty of issues with Kizer on the play, but missing Crow at that point is not one of them. Play looks to be designed (4-receiver stack to left; Gordon split right) to isolate Gordon and go to him. Gordon did not come close to winning his one-on-one battle.

First, and biggest, issue was his unnecessarily bailing on the pocket. Second was the direction he initially chose to bail, to his right. To go that way he had to give ground to get around Mathews... and you don't do that.

I just went thru the play... frame by frame and I looked at the All-22 again. He was trying to go deep to Higgins, who was the deepest WR in the All-22.

 

[Unsympathetic]

It could be worse.. At least we aren't Chicago with the John Fox HC / someone named Dowell Loggains as OC ruining Trubisky. Small victories, I know..

[Dutch Oven]

10 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

It could be worse.. At least we aren't Chicago with the John Fox HC / someone named Dowell Loggains as OC ruining Trubisky. Small victories, I know..

Isn't their OC the Browns ex-QB coach that Manziel texted during the Draft telling him to tell the Browns bigwigs to draft him so he can "wreck this league"?

[TexasAg1969]

2 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Isn't their OC the Browns ex-QB coach that Manziel texted during the Draft telling him to tell the Browns bigwigs to draft him so he can "wreck this league"?

The very same.

[Tour2ma]

47 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Isn't their OC the Browns ex-QB coach that Manziel texted during the Draft telling him to tell the Browns bigwigs to draft him so he can "wreck this league"?

Ah.... the good ol' days...

[Soju]

Kizer most definitely IS the reason, folks

[Clevfan4life]

16 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Yup... plenty of issues with Kizer on the play, but missing Crow at that point is not one of them. Play looks to be designed (4-receiver stack to left; Gordon split right) to isolate Gordon and go to him. Gordon did not come close to winning his one-on-one battle.

First, and biggest, issue was his unnecessarily bailing on the pocket. Second was the direction he initially chose to bail, to his right. To go that way he had to give ground to get around Mathews... and you don't do that.

I just went thru the play... frame by frame and I looked at the All-22 again. He was trying to go deep to Higgins, who was the deepest WR in the All-22.

 

Once he spilled further to his left, how does he still not see crow?