🟫⬜️🟧🟧⬜️🟫Official Gameday Thread Jets at Browns 🟫⬜️🟧🟧⬜️🟫

[tiamat63]

9 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Je'Rod Cherry, an ex-defensive back with the Chiefs, kept commenting on the Redzone tonight that he thought guys were playing "hero ball" or were "going rogue". "It's the only thing that would explain it..." he said, because nothing he sees that the defense is trying to do is all that complicated. 

Donovan brought up the fact that the defense struggled early last season, but seemed to right the ship and play well down the stretch, only to struggle again at the start of THIS season. Grossi and Cherry both seemed to wonder if Woods added some wrinkles for this season, but the players haven't figured the new looks out. 

 I find the "rogue" theory without much merit.  Plus it's a sure way to be benched immediately.  But it's also not supported with evidence. I see pretty clear assignment miscommunication in match depth. Basically DBs not declaring their man at a certain vertical landmark.

 There are a couple looks from the Jets game, the 3 man rush that functions like a cover 2 invert, which is a new call.  So, as much as it pains me to say this, Grossi seems to have a worth while thought there that appears on track. 

 

One thing I'm not in love with is the volume of cover 4 we're playing.  Though I realize defenses are returning to move 2 shell looks both at the CFB and NFL level. 

 

[jrb12711]

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2022/09/19/browns-john-johnson-iii-denzel-ward-both-deflecting-blame-from-blown-coverage-vs-jets/

Between these comments and Myles' after the game, I think a huge part of the problem is leadership. We got two dudes on this side of the ball potentially making almost $200 million and it's all about pointing fingers. Ward saying "it's not my coverage but i'll take the blame" is akin to saying "I'm sorry if you were upset by what I said". Leadership is a glaring issue on the defense and frankly the Browns in general. When you realize the guy maybe to bring that to the team is Watson..yikes.

I'm not in the mindset of dudes having to throw trash cans or yell at people on the sidelines. But the apathy is a big part of the culture it seems.

[Canton Dawg]

25 minutes ago, jrb12711 said:

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2022/09/19/browns-john-johnson-iii-denzel-ward-both-deflecting-blame-from-blown-coverage-vs-jets/

Between these comments and Myles' after the game, I think a huge part of the problem is leadership. We got two dudes on this side of the ball potentially making almost $200 million and it's all about pointing fingers. Ward saying "it's not my coverage but i'll take the blame" is akin to saying "I'm sorry if you were upset by what I said". Leadership is a glaring issue on the defense and frankly the Browns in general. When you realize the guy maybe to bring that to the team is Watson..yikes.

I'm not in the mindset of dudes having to throw trash cans or yell at people on the sidelines. But the apathy is a big part of the culture it seems.

We’ve sunk a ton of draft collateral and cash into that secondary.

The problems are either coaching or personnel, and nobody is owning it.

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

The difference between people that achieve great success and those who don't is that successful people are not crippled the by risk of failure but instead wipe their ass with it.

Your citations now, and in the past about the poor bastards/teams who have spent endless $$ and times searching for success illuminate the difference in our thinking.

Because greatness in QBs/coaches/Execs is so elusive and rare, you believe that standing pat and attempting to forge success out of your resume employees will surely deliver results.

I see however that Stefanski is NOT delivering excellence. His teams lack discipline, drive, focus and execution.

Whether it is because he blows, or because he does not have the testicular fortitude to stand up to Berry/DePo, Stefanski is not the guy.

I am as sure of this as I was Crennell/Sewage and tell you to mark these words.

The Browns will NEVER sniff a championship under Kevin Stefanski. 

HOWEVER, I PROMISE YOU, while the Browns stand safely on dry ground on their rock of mediocrity, the guy that COULD get the team to the show will float down the stream, right in front of their noses, and take HIS team to where the Browns with they could go.

Couple of things Tom... Don't make me look up how many Head Coaches the Dolphins have gone through since Shula, or how many coaches NFL teams have gone though since Bill B took over in New England. It's a nice thought in theory, but that's not how life in the NFL works, and not just for the Browns. You can't keep churning the coaching staff every year or two either. That's a sure fire recipe for disaster, Cleveland is exhibit 1A in that regard.  

Regarding Stefanski.... You may be right, time will tell. Plenty of us were bitching last year that Kev didn't have the guts to bench Mayfield when he was obviously  hurt. But, I'm not ready to throw him under the bus when the Browns lose a game the odds said you should win 2,000 out of 2,000 times. If Amari Cooper had fallen on that onside kick, I doubt you'd still be complaining.   On my drive back home heard he even called the defense over and told them how he wanted them to play before the 66 yard bomb. Fire the players?  

Finally following your logic, you should be more than happy Berry & Company had the brass balls to say Baker wasn't good enough to win the Browns a Super Bowl, and instead swing for the fences bringing in a guy who's carrying more moral baggage with him than a loaded carousel at O'hare International. Should they determine Stefanski isn't good enough either, doubtless he'll be gone too. 

[SdBacker80]

I thought Stefanski called one of his best games- anyone agree with this?

[nickers]

32 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

I thought Stefanski called one of his best games- anyone agree with this?

Sure... But the management on defense and special teams is horrendous!

[mjp28]

22 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

I thought Stefanski called one of his best games- anyone agree with this?

You could say that.....right up to the point the extra point and special teams gave the game away.   Was that second part on Stefanski also ?   Fans love wins no matter who or how they happens   but   they despise a flub up that gives the game away in the final moments. 

Fair to say ?

[hoorta]

I hope that fan thought it was worth it getting permanently banned for hitting Haslam in the leg with a bottle.  Stan is smiling upstairs...    

https://www.nfl.com/news/browns-plan-to-ban-fan-who-threw-bottle-at-team-owner-jimmy-haslam-during-loss-t

[Dutch Oven]

6 minutes ago, hoorta said:

I hope that fan thought it was worth it getting permanently banned for hitting Haslam in the leg with a bottle.  Stan is smiling upstairs...    

https://www.nfl.com/news/browns-plan-to-ban-fan-who-threw-bottle-at-team-owner-jimmy-haslam-during-loss-t

Eh, when the Browns get a new owner that guy will probably let him back in. 😏

[Orion]

Stefanski is the best coach we've had since our return.  And it's not even close.  No more Bill-Hilly's as coach.  No more kicking 60 yard FG's with a guy that can't reach 50 yards and Devin Hester awaiting the kick.  No more bubble screens from the steeler one in OT.  We have an intelligent, articulate coach who understands the modern game and works well with the brain-trust that we have in place.  Let's not get stupid and screw with that setup.

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, Orion said:

Stefanski is the best coach we've had since our return.  And it's not even close.  No more Bill-Hilly's as coach.  No more kicking 60 yard FG's with a guy that can't reach 50 yards and Devin Hester awaiting the kick.  No more bubble screens from the steeler one in OT.  We an intelligent, articulate coach who understands the modern game and works well with the brain-trust that we have in place.  Let's not get stupid and screw with that setup.

I don't disagree with all this, but there's some big problems at this juncture of the Kevin Stefanski Era. Discipline problems, maturity problems, and accountability problems. 

I like Stefanski, and hope he has a long coaching career here, but if he doesn't get things straightened out, resembling the well-run team of 2020 once again, his coaching reign here is on fumes. 

[hoorta]

3 minutes ago, Orion said:

Stefanski is the best coach we've had since our return.  And it's not even close.  No more Bill-Hilly's as coach.  No more kicking 60 yard FG's with a guy that can't reach 50 yards and Devin Hester awaiting the kick.  No more bubble screens from the steeler one in OT.  We an intelligent, articulate coach who understands the modern game and works well with the brain-trust that we have in place.  Let's not get stupid and screw with that setup.

As I posted, no reason to call for the coach to get run out of town over a fluke loss.  About four things had to go wrong to lose that game, take any one of them away, and the Browns are sitting at 2-0 alone on top of the AFC North.  

[SdBacker80]

3 hours ago, mjp28 said:

You could say that.....right up to the point the extra point and special teams gave the game away.   Was that second part on Stefanski also ?   Fans love wins no matter who or how they happens   but   they despise a flub up that gives the game away in the final moments. 

Fair to say ?

Fair.  He’s got to forecast some of the issues the known issues he has to oversee and ensure they are corrected. 
 

Delpit and the secondary calls happened two straight weeks.  Last Monday he needed to make sure his coaches were working towards making the corrections.  Maybe he did.  Now he needs to drop the hammer.  
 

His work on this offense has been very good and the playing calling for most parts of two games- id say very good as well.  We know he’s overly involved here…we’ve complained about it too
 

I don’t think his head rolls but if he lets this defense go i will change my opinion.  I complained most of last year about Woods the year prior to last I saw a few signs of his stupidity like the Jax Game, Jets 2020.  Granted I like aggressive defensive coordinators…I’d rather a team beat my blitz then sit back and dink and dunk me to death for scores.  It blows my mind that woods defenses have had more long gain busted coverages and honestly our talent in the secondary is the best it’s been.

On special teams we missed a kick and we weren’t lined up correctly on the onside kick.  Watch it we had three at the bottom they had four.  Kevin should called a timeout his coordinator should have been all over that.  

[hoorta]

14 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I don't disagree with all this, but there's some big problems at this juncture of the Kevin Stefanski Era. Discipline problems, maturity problems, and accountability problems. 

I like Stefanski, and hope he has a long coaching career here, but if he doesn't get things straightened out, resembling the well-run team of 2020 once again, his coaching reign here is on fumes. 

It's not a good look for your defense to get embarrassed two weeks in a row on long bomb TD passes, with nary a Browns defender in the same area code as the WR.  If it's a communication issue, the defense has four days to learn how to "communicate" with one another.  If there's screw ups like that maybe Woods needs to simplify thing so there's less chance of another breakdown.  

Now the finger pointing has begun...  Sorry Myles, you need to man up and stop ragging on the fans for booing- after you & the defense blew a game you had no business losing. 40 years ago in the Dawg Pound era, the fans would have been throwing batteries at you.  🙄

[SdBacker80]

Can we go back to the sandlot/street/backyard and line up across from a guy and play man?

Denzel, Newsome, Delpit, Emmerson the collective best quality of this group…they all can run. 

[Dutch Oven]

8 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

On special teams we missed a kick and we weren’t lined up correctly on the onside kick.  Watch it we had three at the bottom they had four.  Kevin should called a timeout his coordinator should have been all over that.  

The missed extra point is not the fault of the special teams coach, hell, I doubt any special teams coach honestly knows jack shit about kicking field goals. I get the impression they just tell the kicker to "go over there and kick some balls". 

But the special teams did allow a fake punt to succeed, in a situation that was just screaming "THIS BAD TEAM THAT HAS NOTHING TO LOSE IS GOING TO FAKE THE PUNT." Hell, look back on this thread, I literally wrote WATCH FOR THE FAKE! 

[SdBacker80]

2 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

The missed extra point is not the fault of the special teams coach, hell, I doubt any special teams coach honestly knows jack shit about kicking field goals. I get the impression they just tell the kicker to "go over there and kick some balls". 

But the special teams did allow a fake punt to succeed, in a situation that was just screaming "THIS BAD TEAM THAT HAS NOTHING TO LOSE IS GOING TO FAKE THE PUNT." Hell, look back on this thread, I literally wrote WATCH FOR THE FAKE! 

I forgot about the fake.  Yeah that was bad… a player is taught at every level along their journey to the NFL that when a team has a short yardage 4th down situation at midfield it’s the first thing you look for.  

[tiamat63]

15 minutes ago, hoorta said:

.  If there's screw ups like that maybe Woods needs to simplify thing so there's less chance of another breakdown.  

 

Watching the final drive, by my count the Browns have played cover 6 over trips and cover 2 vs 2x2.  Then one call that had a 3x2 to the boundary where they played cover 2.   

It's as simple as it gets.  The problem with that is, simple and repetitive don't go hand in hand because it's SO damn exploitable.  Especially at the end of the game when your pass rush is gassed. 

If there's one HUGE fault I can find with Woods - he should have called a timeout when the Jets crossed midfield the last time and possibly went with some man coverage.   The pass off from chunk plays to time burned was in favor of NYJ at that point.  

[tiamat63]

20 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

 

And Denzel Ward is quoted and thought they were in Cover 2.  If that’s what Woods and Co. called Is that a smart coverage given the situation?

Like the post I had just above this, Yes and No.    But this team has been playing a ton of cover 4 adaptations the last 2 weeks and it's looking a bit stale.   I also hate the idea of giving free releases to fast receivers matched with a tired pass rush and praying your safeties hold up.   Doesn't take much to get a DB to turn his hips the wrong way when you have free reign of your route and extra time to through. 

Myles had a decent game, but there's one thing we're learning as fans - without Clowney, there is no other consistent pass rush threat currently on roster. 

 

23 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

  It blows my mind that woods defenses have had more long gain busted coverages and honestly our talent in the secondary is the best it’s been.

 

The talent is there, the experience isn't.  Grant isn't getting his calls right and his eyes aren't in the right places.  Newsome is forgetting vertical landmark depth and Emerson is still a rookie.  

[Kvoethe]

Saw Herm Edwards was fired after the game.  Still have Woods...laughingstock

[Kvoethe]

https://twitter.com/PFTCommenter/status/1571876208517709824?t=RAhQ9-KRPGUk2JUmN-nqmA&s=19

[Vambo]

Browns' Nick Chubb Takes Responsibility For Collapse Against Jets

The New York Jets benefited from Nick Chubb's decision to score his third touchdown of the game, rather than running out the clock in the fourth quarter.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/jets/news/cleveland-browns-nick-chubb-takes-responsibility-historic-collapse-new-york-jets

 

"Yeah, I probably shouldn't have scored right there," Chubb told ESPN's Jake Trotter on Tuesday. "Honestly, looking back at it, it cost us the game. A lot of things went wrong, not just one thing. But collectively as a unit, as a team, we could've all done things different. But it's only a problem because we didn't win. So I probably should've went down."

 

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Vambo said:

Browns' Nick Chubb Takes Responsibility For Collapse Against Jets

The New York Jets benefited from Nick Chubb's decision to score his third touchdown of the game, rather than running out the clock in the fourth quarter.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/jets/news/cleveland-browns-nick-chubb-takes-responsibility-historic-collapse-new-york-jets

 

"Yeah, I probably shouldn't have scored right there," Chubb told ESPN's Jake Trotter on Tuesday. "Honestly, looking back at it, it cost us the game. A lot of things went wrong, not just one thing. But collectively as a unit, as a team, we could've all done things different. But it's only a problem because we didn't win. So I probably should've went down."

 

DON'T beat yourself up Nick... When you come right down to it, the object of the game is to score as many points as possible. Up 14 with less than 2 minutes left should have been plenty enough.  

[bjh2130]

12 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Watching the final drive, by my count the Browns have played cover 6 over trips and cover 2 vs 2x2.  Then one call that had a 3x2 to the boundary where they played cover 2.   

It's as simple as it gets.  The problem with that is, simple and repetitive don't go hand in hand because it's SO damn exploitable.  Especially at the end of the game when your pass rush is gassed. 

If there's one HUGE fault I can find with Woods - he should have called a timeout when the Jets crossed midfield the last time and possibly went with some man coverage.   The pass off from chunk plays to time burned was in favor of NYJ at that point.  

I haven't watched the all 22 but my thought after thinking about it sunday afternoon was that deeo coverage very well could have been a cover 6 with delpit and ward being the cover 2 side and ward was playing curl flats with a potential mable to one side of the field

[tiamat63]

16 minutes ago, bjh2130 said:

I haven't watched the all 22 but my thought after thinking about it sunday afternoon was that deeo coverage very well could have been a cover 6 with delpit and ward being the cover 2 side and ward was playing curl flats with a potential mable to one side of the field

That's almost exactly what it was. 

Only Denzel was very generous in his depth on his side, protecting the sideline.  Delpit dropped like it was a 2 read, robbing curl to post, and didn't get back over top.

 

Edit: let me phrase that by saying- strong side of the formation is playing quarters rules 4 over 3.   On the weak side everyone except Delpit, appears to be playing cover 2 rules.  

I said this before - this defense has some issues. But right now, Grant Delpits play is the largest of those issues. 

[Korsou Dawg]

13 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

The missed extra point is not the fault of the special teams coach, hell, I doubt any special teams coach honestly knows jack shit about kicking field goals. I get the impression they just tell the kicker to "go over there and kick some balls". 

But the special teams did allow a fake punt to succeed, in a situation that was just screaming "THIS BAD TEAM THAT HAS NOTHING TO LOSE IS GOING TO FAKE THE PUNT." Hell, look back on this thread, I literally wrote WATCH FOR THE FAKE! 

Re PAT: I distinctly remember a defender charging at York from the left side, about two or three steps away from the ball. Presumably that made him rush his kick. That breakdown in protection is on the coach's plate. 

Didn't anyone else notice that? Maybe @tiamat63in his video review? 

[tiamat63]

10 minutes ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Re PAT: I distinctly remember a defender charging at York from the left side, about two or three steps away from the ball. Presumably that made him rush his kick. That breakdown in protection is on the coach's plate. 

Didn't anyone else notice that? Maybe @tiamat63in his video review? 

Haven't gotten to it yet.  But I can. 

 

Edit: wanted to toss this out there too. It's going to be difficult reviewing interceptions this season. Because I'm currently emailing an NFL.com rep on why they have either removed, or are not uploading plays that ended in interceptions on the coaches film.  And I mean at all. I can watch fumbles and safeties, but I can't view interceptions. 

It appears to be intentional. The only question I have is, 'why'? 

[Korsou Dawg]

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

DON'T beat yourself up Nick... When you come right down to it, the object of the game is to score as many points as possible. Up 14 with less than 2 minutes left should have been plenty enough.  

I like that he took ownership here. Maybe that attitude will rub off on some of the ladies that were whining about being booed.

And it was clearly a mistake. Even Flacco mentioned they wouldn't have won if Chubb just took the first and let the clock run. As I mentioned before, it is easy to forgive him, the way our offense leans on him, but it should be recognized as a mistake. That attention to detail and situational awareness will be required in order to have a chance to win the big one in the coming seasons.  

[Korsou Dawg]

3 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Haven't gotten to it yet.  But I can. 

Up to you to decide if it is relevant enough. Based on what I saw, it was more a protection issue, rather than a rookie kicker 'just' missing the PAT.

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Re PAT: I distinctly remember a defender charging at York from the left side, about two or three steps away from the ball. Presumably that made him rush his kick. That breakdown in protection is on the coach's plate. 

Didn't anyone else notice that? Maybe @tiamat63in his video review? 

I didn't notice it, however my co season ticket holder saw exactly what you're describing.