🟫⬜️🟧🟧⬜️🟫Official Gameday Thread Jets at Browns 🟫⬜️🟧🟧⬜️🟫

[mjp28]

10 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Jim Donovan just killed the Browns for 60 minutes on Redzone.

He had exactly zero fucks to give. 

I listened to Jim Donovan on our local FM radio do the game in typical super Mr Excitement Jim Donovan style......but he roasted the BROWNS late in the game and really gave it to them after the game. 

All well deserved. 

Once in awhile I like to listen Hammy do an Indians now Guardians game and maybe surf blackout games or OSU games and rare BROWNS games  it's a different experience.   But then it's back to the TV game experience.

Way back when when the Cleveland Indians only had 100+ games on TV we listened to a lot of games, great for car trips too.

But the BROWNS laid an egg last week TV or radio.  No excuses. 

[SdBacker80]

 

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

re: Johnny J.   He also played with a more consistent pass rush across the entire front.   Aaron Donald on the interior does wonders for your defense.    Worth pointing out something I've tossed out before, for all the single high the Rams played then, Fuller was their middle field safety.  Allowed JJ3 to move around quite a bit and not have to be so rangy.  Not that he *can't* do it, but he isn't a proficient MFS ballhawk either.    Which is why I've spoken to the redundancy in skill sets of our current Browns safety group.  It's good and bad because the abilities don't really contrast as they compliment each other.

 

I'm watching that bust right now and it's some wonky ass look that starts as a true 3 deep with 5 under on a 3 man rush. Then I see it plays like a cover 2 sink, but the vulnerability of a sink being the middle backer dropping so deep he gets replaced by a receiver.   So you end up dropping another defender in that voided zone and hope to bait a throw.  That replacement can be anybody, including a Dlineman.  Something I watched the Bears try a couple times this pre-season against us that I thought was cool as shit.   And being that the NFL is a copy cat league....   I'll actually post some pics of that tomorrow.  

Which means your corners are responsible for picking up first flat.    So Denzel and Newsome would have seriously eff'd up there.      These are calls I've never seen Woods' make, so I have a feeling you can attribute that confusion to trying something new that the defense just wasn't ready to handle when the bullets went live fire.

 

 

And Denzel Ward is quoted and thought they were in Cover 2.  If that’s what Woods and Co. called Is that a smart coverage given the situation?

[tiamat63]

1 minute ago, SdBacker80 said:

 

And Denzel Ward is quoted and thought they were in Cover 2.  If that’s what Woods and Co. call Is that a smart coverage given the situation?

Cover 2 in the flat TD to Hall?   or Cover 2 in the call that gave up the 66 yard bomb?

 

edit:  Let me be clear on that.  The call on the flat TD to Hall from the backfield looks like a 3 man rush with a cover 2 shell and MIKE sink w/ replacement.  

The call from the 66 yard bomb looks like 2 read and Delpit fucked up not getting high and inside over the WR.

[SdBacker80]

2 hours ago, gumby73 said:

Bill Callahan  & Scott Peters don't make excuses for poor OL execution.. They've coached here with several different backup players thru camps & seasons. Callahan has been here just as long as Joe Woods has.. Yes, Joe Woods has more defensive position groups to deal with than Bill Callahan... but Woods got his DC job, as a DB coach since 1992.. Joe Woods only Defensive Cord. job? Lasted 1 season in Denver 2017-2018..  Woods staff has a defense quality control coach named Jeff Anderson & a DB/Pass game cord. coach named Jeff Howard.. <<< start here and simplify your coverage schemes  🤷‍♂️  

He’s gotta a converted DT and a castaway Center from a terrible Seahawk line.  No excuses he just works.   He’s playing chess. I hope he doesn’t retire anytime soon. 

[SdBacker80]

4 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Cover 2 in the flat TD to Hall?   or Cover 2 in the call that gave up the 66 yard bomb?

I thought The 66 yarder.  It is the 66 yarder according to this

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/09/19/denzel-ward-on-corey-davis-66-yard-td-it-wasnt-my-coverage-but-ill-take-the-blame/amp/

[tiamat63]

1 minute ago, SdBacker80 said:

I thought The 66 yarder.

Sounds about right.  Because Ward is playing like he'll have help from Delpit high, and the endzone look from the coaches film has Denzel looking back at Delpit like he knows Grant fucked up.  

speaking of which, currently watching the Eagles secondary make mistakes on match passoffs like the Browns.  

[Dutch Oven]

Je'Rod Cherry, an ex-defensive back with the Chiefs, kept commenting on the Redzone tonight that he thought guys were playing "hero ball" or were "going rogue". "It's the only thing that would explain it..." he said, because nothing he sees that the defense is trying to do is all that complicated. 

Donovan brought up the fact that the defense struggled early last season, but seemed to right the ship and play well down the stretch, only to struggle again at the start of THIS season. Grossi and Cherry both seemed to wonder if Woods added some wrinkles for this season, but the players haven't figured the new looks out. 

[Neo]

28 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Sounds about right.  Because Ward is playing like he'll have help from Delpit high, and the endzone look from the coaches film has Denzel looking back at Delpit like he knows Grant fucked up.  

speaking of which, currently watching the Eagles secondary make mistakes on match passoffs like the Browns.  

How much of this has to do with not playing starters in pre-season? 

[tiamat63]

6 minutes ago, Neo said:

How much of this has to do with not playing starters in pre-season? 

Difficult to tell. 

 I say that because a lot of what you see has been straight forward in terms of the coverage busts vs route design.   Nothing that I would consider highly complex being shown by the Panthers or Jets.

 If the starters got preseason snaps, it's possible you might have ironed out a few wrinkles, but the shirt still needs to be tossed in the dryer.   Savvy?

 

[Unsympathetic]

It could be worse. 

Haslam could hire Nathaniel Hackett to replace Joe Woods.

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

11 hours ago, Flugel said:

I agree with a lot of what you say except the stuff that made me spit my soup out.  But it was worth the read so thanks!

Things are simple for most other teams the last 3 decades,  Unfortunately Tom, the guy that hired Stefanski is the same guy that will hire the next HC using the same exact criteria or lack thereof.  That's why that is significant.  That's the stuff leading the Titanic into a glacier - only this time they don't have the excuse it was too dark to see.  

Well, here's the adversity against what is supposed to be one of the weaker opponents on the schedule.  Their defense is good but their offense won't overwhelm many, if any, secondaries, beside the Browns.  They better giddyup and get after it.

 

 

Also, as always, good logic Tom.

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

Also, as always, good logic Tom.

I'm not going to get into any debate BUT. It was just two short years ago that Stefanski won NFL Coach of the Year. Are you trying to tell me he's been taking massive amounts of stupid pills ever since then? Shitpanski? Yeah, to have a realistic shot at landing an NFL Head Coaching gig, you had better be able to shit football IQ. 

Just keep on firing guys until you hit on a HOF keeper? Lotsa luck with that strategy, those guys come along about once in a  generation. The odds say you're way more likely to hire the next Hue Jackson than the next Don Schula. BTW, the Dolphins have been looking for his replacement since 1996.

 

[Westside Steve]

4 hours ago, hoorta said:

I'm not going to get into any debate BUT. It was just two short years ago that Stefanski won NFL Coach of the Year. Are you trying to tell me he's been taking massive amounts of stupid pills ever since then? Shitpanski? Yeah, to have a realistic shot at landing an NFL Head Coaching gig, you had better be able to shit football IQ. 

Just keep on firing guys until you hit on a HOF keeper? Lotsa luck with that strategy, those guys come along about once in a  generation. The odds say you're way more likely to hire the next Hue Jackson than the next Don Schula. BTW, the Dolphins have been looking for his replacement since 1996.

 

Isn't that Jimmy Haslam's modus operandi?

One of my biggest complaints about the Browns for a long time. Blow up the organization find out you don't immediately go to the Super Bowl and blow it up again.

WSS

[Flugel]

15 hours ago, MDDawg said:

I've watched nearly every Browns game since the return and this was one of the worst losses because of our purported talent level. Brissett played well enough to win, connected well with his receivers. For some reason I had a bad feeling when Cade York missed the extra point and wasn't surprised they lost the onside kick. Delpit should be benched he nearly cost us one game and cost us another. With this loss I now know we'll be in for a long season not just because of everyone's whipping boy Brisset but coaching from the head on down.

Thanks for your summary!  That was a tough one to witness for sure.  All the little things become the sum of who wanted it more beginning with the week of preparation.  At the end of the day, was there any question as to who that was?   There's an old saying: "If you fail to prepare; then you should prepare to fail."   Shouldn't well paid professionals prepare?  

[tiamat63]

9 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Je'Rod Cherry, an ex-defensive back with the Chiefs, kept commenting on the Redzone tonight that he thought guys were playing "hero ball" or were "going rogue". "It's the only thing that would explain it..." he said, because nothing he sees that the defense is trying to do is all that complicated. 

Donovan brought up the fact that the defense struggled early last season, but seemed to right the ship and play well down the stretch, only to struggle again at the start of THIS season. Grossi and Cherry both seemed to wonder if Woods added some wrinkles for this season, but the players haven't figured the new looks out. 

 I find the "rogue" theory without much merit.  Plus it's a sure way to be benched immediately.  But it's also not supported with evidence. I see pretty clear assignment miscommunication in match depth. Basically DBs not declaring their man at a certain vertical landmark.

 There are a couple looks from the Jets game, the 3 man rush that functions like a cover 2 invert, which is a new call.  So, as much as it pains me to say this, Grossi seems to have a worth while thought there that appears on track. 

 

One thing I'm not in love with is the volume of cover 4 we're playing.  Though I realize defenses are returning to move 2 shell looks both at the CFB and NFL level. 

 

[jrb12711]

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2022/09/19/browns-john-johnson-iii-denzel-ward-both-deflecting-blame-from-blown-coverage-vs-jets/

Between these comments and Myles' after the game, I think a huge part of the problem is leadership. We got two dudes on this side of the ball potentially making almost $200 million and it's all about pointing fingers. Ward saying "it's not my coverage but i'll take the blame" is akin to saying "I'm sorry if you were upset by what I said". Leadership is a glaring issue on the defense and frankly the Browns in general. When you realize the guy maybe to bring that to the team is Watson..yikes.

I'm not in the mindset of dudes having to throw trash cans or yell at people on the sidelines. But the apathy is a big part of the culture it seems.

[Canton Dawg]

25 minutes ago, jrb12711 said:

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2022/09/19/browns-john-johnson-iii-denzel-ward-both-deflecting-blame-from-blown-coverage-vs-jets/

Between these comments and Myles' after the game, I think a huge part of the problem is leadership. We got two dudes on this side of the ball potentially making almost $200 million and it's all about pointing fingers. Ward saying "it's not my coverage but i'll take the blame" is akin to saying "I'm sorry if you were upset by what I said". Leadership is a glaring issue on the defense and frankly the Browns in general. When you realize the guy maybe to bring that to the team is Watson..yikes.

I'm not in the mindset of dudes having to throw trash cans or yell at people on the sidelines. But the apathy is a big part of the culture it seems.

We’ve sunk a ton of draft collateral and cash into that secondary.

The problems are either coaching or personnel, and nobody is owning it.

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

7 hours ago, hoorta said:

I'm not going to get into any debate BUT. It was just two short years ago that Stefanski won NFL Coach of the Year. Are you trying to tell me he's been taking massive amounts of stupid pills ever since then? Shitpanski? Yeah, to have a realistic shot at landing an NFL Head Coaching gig, you had better be able to shit football IQ. 

Just keep on firing guys until you hit on a HOF keeper? Lotsa luck with that strategy, those guys come along about once in a  generation. The odds say you're way more likely to hire the next Hue Jackson than the next Don Schula. BTW, the Dolphins have been looking for his replacement since 1996.

 

Larry, not long ago you made the very same case against my call to fire Phil Sewage and Romeo Crennell during their first preseason.

You stressed their previous work, resumes, and the need for continuity as proof positive that FINALLY the Browns were on the right course. 

As we know, I was right. I am also right, now.

We have different perspectives on life, Larry.

I have what I have in life based completely on being a serial entrepreneur. When you visited my home and studio you got a sample of my view of the world.

If what I do doesn't work, I have no fall back, no paycheck, no Haslam.

The difference between people that achieve great success and those who don't is that successful people are not crippled the by risk of failure but instead wipe their ass with it.

Your citations now, and in the past about the poor bastards/teams who have spent endless $$ and times searching for success illuminate the difference in our thinking.

Because greatness in QBs/coaches/Execs is so elusive and rare, you believe that standing pat and attempting to forge success out of your resume employees will surely deliver results.

I see however that Stefanski is NOT delivering excellence. His teams lack discipline, drive, focus and execution.

Whether it is because he blows, or because he does not have the testicular fortitude to stand up to Berry/DePo, Stefanski is not the guy.

I am as sure of this as I was Crennell/Sewage and tell you to mark these words.

The Browns will NEVER sniff a championship under Kevin Stefanski. 

HOWEVER, I PROMISE YOU, while the Browns stand safely on dry ground on their rock of mediocrity, the guy that COULD get the team to the show will float down the stream, right in front of their noses, and take HIS team to where the Browns with they could go.

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

53 minutes ago, Canton Dawg said:

We’ve sunk a ton of draft collateral and cash into that secondary.

The problems are either coaching or personnel, and nobody is owning it.

As I say, the team lacks discipline. Stefanski isnot the guy. If he was, this team would not be "Fast times at Ridgemont High".

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, Ghoolie Always Ghoolie said:

The difference between people that achieve great success and those who don't is that successful people are not crippled the by risk of failure but instead wipe their ass with it.

Your citations now, and in the past about the poor bastards/teams who have spent endless $$ and times searching for success illuminate the difference in our thinking.

Because greatness in QBs/coaches/Execs is so elusive and rare, you believe that standing pat and attempting to forge success out of your resume employees will surely deliver results.

I see however that Stefanski is NOT delivering excellence. His teams lack discipline, drive, focus and execution.

Whether it is because he blows, or because he does not have the testicular fortitude to stand up to Berry/DePo, Stefanski is not the guy.

I am as sure of this as I was Crennell/Sewage and tell you to mark these words.

The Browns will NEVER sniff a championship under Kevin Stefanski. 

HOWEVER, I PROMISE YOU, while the Browns stand safely on dry ground on their rock of mediocrity, the guy that COULD get the team to the show will float down the stream, right in front of their noses, and take HIS team to where the Browns with they could go.

Couple of things Tom... Don't make me look up how many Head Coaches the Dolphins have gone through since Shula, or how many coaches NFL teams have gone though since Bill B took over in New England. It's a nice thought in theory, but that's not how life in the NFL works, and not just for the Browns. You can't keep churning the coaching staff every year or two either. That's a sure fire recipe for disaster, Cleveland is exhibit 1A in that regard.  

Regarding Stefanski.... You may be right, time will tell. Plenty of us were bitching last year that Kev didn't have the guts to bench Mayfield when he was obviously  hurt. But, I'm not ready to throw him under the bus when the Browns lose a game the odds said you should win 2,000 out of 2,000 times. If Amari Cooper had fallen on that onside kick, I doubt you'd still be complaining.   On my drive back home heard he even called the defense over and told them how he wanted them to play before the 66 yard bomb. Fire the players?  

Finally following your logic, you should be more than happy Berry & Company had the brass balls to say Baker wasn't good enough to win the Browns a Super Bowl, and instead swing for the fences bringing in a guy who's carrying more moral baggage with him than a loaded carousel at O'hare International. Should they determine Stefanski isn't good enough either, doubtless he'll be gone too. 

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

11 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Couple of things Tom... Don't make me look up how many Head Coaches the Dolphins have gone through since Shula, or how many coaches NFL teams have gone though since Bill B took over in New England. It's a nice thought in theory, but that's not how life in the NFL works, and not just for the Browns. You can't keep churning the coaching staff every year or two either. That's a sure fire recipe for disaster, Cleveland is exhibit 1A in that regard.  

Regarding Stefanski.... You may be right, time will tell. Plenty of us were bitching last year that Kev didn't have the guts to bench Mayfield when he was obviously  hurt. But, I'm not ready to throw him under the bus when the Browns lose a game the odds said you should win 2,000 out of 2,000 times. If Amari Cooper had fallen on that onside kick, I doubt you'd still be complaining.   On my drive back home heard he even called the defense over and told them how he wanted them to play before the 66 yard bomb. Fire the players?  

Finally following your logic, you should be more than happy Berry & Company had the brass balls to say Baker wasn't good enough to win the Browns a Super Bowl, and instead swing for the fences bringing in a guy who's carrying more moral baggage with him than a loaded carousel at O'hare International. Should they determine Stefanski isn't good enough either, doubtless he'll be gone too. 

Larry, we have been chewing on these issues for years, clonking each other over the head. So let me say this.

I have missed our banter and have always considered you a friend and the epitome of what a Browns fan is.

It is nice to be back to the grind.

Here is hoping we both finally get some relief and get to celebrate another 1964.

[SdBacker80]

I thought Stefanski called one of his best games- anyone agree with this?

[nickers]

32 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

I thought Stefanski called one of his best games- anyone agree with this?

Sure... But the management on defense and special teams is horrendous!

[mjp28]

22 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

I thought Stefanski called one of his best games- anyone agree with this?

You could say that.....right up to the point the extra point and special teams gave the game away.   Was that second part on Stefanski also ?   Fans love wins no matter who or how they happens   but   they despise a flub up that gives the game away in the final moments. 

Fair to say ?

[hoorta]

I hope that fan thought it was worth it getting permanently banned for hitting Haslam in the leg with a bottle.  Stan is smiling upstairs...    

https://www.nfl.com/news/browns-plan-to-ban-fan-who-threw-bottle-at-team-owner-jimmy-haslam-during-loss-t

[Dutch Oven]

6 minutes ago, hoorta said:

I hope that fan thought it was worth it getting permanently banned for hitting Haslam in the leg with a bottle.  Stan is smiling upstairs...    

https://www.nfl.com/news/browns-plan-to-ban-fan-who-threw-bottle-at-team-owner-jimmy-haslam-during-loss-t

Eh, when the Browns get a new owner that guy will probably let him back in. 😏

[Orion]

Stefanski is the best coach we've had since our return.  And it's not even close.  No more Bill-Hilly's as coach.  No more kicking 60 yard FG's with a guy that can't reach 50 yards and Devin Hester awaiting the kick.  No more bubble screens from the steeler one in OT.  We have an intelligent, articulate coach who understands the modern game and works well with the brain-trust that we have in place.  Let's not get stupid and screw with that setup.

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, Orion said:

Stefanski is the best coach we've had since our return.  And it's not even close.  No more Bill-Hilly's as coach.  No more kicking 60 yard FG's with a guy that can't reach 50 yards and Devin Hester awaiting the kick.  No more bubble screens from the steeler one in OT.  We an intelligent, articulate coach who understands the modern game and works well with the brain-trust that we have in place.  Let's not get stupid and screw with that setup.

I don't disagree with all this, but there's some big problems at this juncture of the Kevin Stefanski Era. Discipline problems, maturity problems, and accountability problems. 

I like Stefanski, and hope he has a long coaching career here, but if he doesn't get things straightened out, resembling the well-run team of 2020 once again, his coaching reign here is on fumes. 

[hoorta]

3 minutes ago, Orion said:

Stefanski is the best coach we've had since our return.  And it's not even close.  No more Bill-Hilly's as coach.  No more kicking 60 yard FG's with a guy that can't reach 50 yards and Devin Hester awaiting the kick.  No more bubble screens from the steeler one in OT.  We an intelligent, articulate coach who understands the modern game and works well with the brain-trust that we have in place.  Let's not get stupid and screw with that setup.

As I posted, no reason to call for the coach to get run out of town over a fluke loss.  About four things had to go wrong to lose that game, take any one of them away, and the Browns are sitting at 2-0 alone on top of the AFC North.  

[SdBacker80]

3 hours ago, mjp28 said:

You could say that.....right up to the point the extra point and special teams gave the game away.   Was that second part on Stefanski also ?   Fans love wins no matter who or how they happens   but   they despise a flub up that gives the game away in the final moments. 

Fair to say ?

Fair.  He’s got to forecast some of the issues the known issues he has to oversee and ensure they are corrected. 
 

Delpit and the secondary calls happened two straight weeks.  Last Monday he needed to make sure his coaches were working towards making the corrections.  Maybe he did.  Now he needs to drop the hammer.  
 

His work on this offense has been very good and the playing calling for most parts of two games- id say very good as well.  We know he’s overly involved here…we’ve complained about it too
 

I don’t think his head rolls but if he lets this defense go i will change my opinion.  I complained most of last year about Woods the year prior to last I saw a few signs of his stupidity like the Jax Game, Jets 2020.  Granted I like aggressive defensive coordinators…I’d rather a team beat my blitz then sit back and dink and dunk me to death for scores.  It blows my mind that woods defenses have had more long gain busted coverages and honestly our talent in the secondary is the best it’s been.

On special teams we missed a kick and we weren’t lined up correctly on the onside kick.  Watch it we had three at the bottom they had four.  Kevin should called a timeout his coordinator should have been all over that.