​ "The" 🏈 Official Browns at Bengals Game 13 Thread • WEEK 14 • 🏈 ​

[Dutch Oven]

4 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 This reminds me, you mentioned that Joe Woods' scheme is the problem with the defense.  I've asked, at least half dozen times, for you to explain to me the basics of the Browns 1 gap over fronts that make up the bulk of their calls. 

I've gone as far as to encourage you to download discord and to explain to us in real time on there to your fellow Browns fans. 

 When I go to get my car worked on, and the mechanic says "xyz" is the problem, I've never seen a decent mechanic either fail to, be unable, or refuse to explain in detail the problem.   I don't think of you as a bad mechanic...  So maybe you can help educate some of us at some point.  

 

I guarantee nickers has been diagnosed with this Dunning-Kreuger Effect, thus the reason he constantly brings it up. and levies it upon people on this board as some kind of projection on his part. I mean, sweet 8lb, 6oz baby Jesus:

"The Dunning-Kruger effect is when a person does not have skills or ability in a specific area but sees themselves as fully equipped to give opinions or carry out tasks in that field, even though objective measures or people around them may disagree."  is our boy nickers on virtually every topic under the sun. 

I'm just mad that he started the Festivus 'Airing of the Grievances' against me a week and a half early, then put me on ignore. How will we settle our differences via Feats of Strength now? 

[Dutch Oven]

30 minutes ago, Orion said:

What we were looking for was some improvement in our brand new QB from week one to week two.  I wasn't able to see this game but from most accounts, the QB play was somewhat improved.  From here I'd expect a leveling off and then perhaps tangible improvement for the last couple of games....

He definitely improved from Game 1 . His throws looked much better, but you could tell his processing was still slow. You'd see a promising play here and there that reminded you why he was thought so highly of in his first few years, but he was still rusty. 

I agree with your theory of how his last games will go, that sounds pretty fair. No idea if he'll ever get back to his 2020 and before level. 

[Neo]

42 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

He definitely improved from Game 1 . His throws looked much better, but you could tell his processing was still slow. You'd see a promising play here and there that reminded you why he was thought so highly of in his first few years, but he was still rusty. 

I agree with your theory of how his last games will go, that sounds pretty fair. No idea if he'll ever get back to his 2020 and before level. 

Nobody knows. From what I saw of him so far, he is clearly putting in the effort and isn't just going through the motions. Also, I don't agree with what they paid for him but people forget that there weren't too many options out there and was Mayfields shoulder going to be an ongoing problem. The owner clearly thought he was getting an upgrade over Mayfield but time will tell if it was worth it.

[Dutch Oven]

47 minutes ago, Neo said:

Nobody knows. From what I saw of him so far, he is clearly putting in the effort and isn't just going through the motions. Also, I don't agree with what they paid for him but people forget that there weren't too many options out there and was Mayfields shoulder going to be an ongoing problem. The owner clearly thought he was getting an upgrade over Mayfield but time will tell if it was worth it.

Top level QBs are going to cost an arm and a leg. Call the Bengals up and ask them to trade Joe Burrow... after the laughter subsides, they'd hang up on you. 

The problem with our former top tier QB is he's a public relations disaster - and what I've always thought was kind of glossed over - is how is he going to deal with being "the bad guy" everywhere he plays outside of Cleveland. (And trust me, there's obviously many here who don't like him either). Some players have no problem being the bad guy, the asshole. In fact, some probably thrive on it. 

I have some serious doubts that Deshaun Watson is that guy. He doesn't strike me as someone who is going to go all Bill Laimbeer and play like he's Tupac with both middle fingers up screaming 'FUCK THE WORLD'. I think there's a good chance the mental weight of all the shit swirling around him could very well effect his play. 

So yeah, I think physically he'll get back to his 2020 form. Mentally? That's the $64,000 question. And if between the ears, he's rattled by this longterm, the Browns have gambled and lost. 

[syd]

3 minutes ago, Neo said:

Nobody knows. From what I saw of him so far, he is clearly putting in the effort and isn't just going through the motions. Also, I don't agree with what they paid for him but people forget that there weren't too many options out there and was Mayfields shoulder going to be an ongoing problem. The owner clearly thought he was getting an upgrade over Mayfield but time will tell if it was worth it.

I said this somewhere before it is his muscle memory and just willing to trust what his body can do add that to playing for a new coaching staff and different players you can see why it is a uphill climb for him and i really didnt expect him to just come in and light it up after being off for all most two full seasons 

but one thing for sure Watson rusty is still better than mayfield healthy

[Orion]

26 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

No idea if he'll ever get back to his 2020 and before level. 

Right!   I forget who here said it, 'Typically, players don't come here and have their best years.'  

- Somehow, people have to get over the fact that he's our QB.  And all that comes with it....the picks, the 230 mil, the law suits, all of it.  He's it for the foreseeable future.  And if the Holier Than Thou crowd can't hack it, then they should pretend the team moved away again.  When Watson's era in Cleveland is over they can pretend the team moved back.

For these final 4 games, I'm in learning mode on Watson.  I've given every QB a chance to prove that they should be our QB.  Even that knuckle-head Manziel.  I did not want him...but when his name was called he was given a clean 'Browns Player' slate.   And ya know, the one thing that Manziel had was a good clock.  He knew when it was time to leave a pass pocket.  And he put pressure on the D when he did leave it.  But of course, Our Guys thwarted him from playing his brand of football and told him to stay in the pocket and get squished like a grape.  Because that's what you do!  You draft a guy with a particular style and you hammer him into the hole that you have.

Anyway, Watson deserves time in order to prove his ability and value.  Just like anyone else deserves.

 

 

[Dutch Oven]

5 minutes ago, syd said:

but one thing for sure Watson rusty is still better than mayfield healthy

Watson at his best is better than Mayfield at his best. I have zero doubts about this.

But Deshaun Watson today is categorically inferior to Mayfield in 2020, when he was healthy for the entire season and played very well for the second half of the season. 

[nickers]

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 This reminds me, you mentioned that Joe Woods' scheme is the problem with the defense.  I've asked, at least half dozen times, for you to explain to me the basics of the Browns 1 gap over fronts that make up the bulk of their calls. 

I've gone as far as to encourage you to download discord and to explain to us in real time on there to your fellow Browns fans. 

 When I go to get my car worked on, and the mechanic says "xyz" is the problem, I've never seen a decent mechanic either fail to, be unable, or refuse to explain in detail the problem.   I don't think of you as a bad mechanic...  So maybe you can help educate some of us at some point.  

 

You're the supposed resident expert....,. I mean whats there to explain"... Delpit looks lost half the time... Joe has them playing too far off their man leaving pockets all over the field...They play too much zone coverage that leaves TE's open in the middle.. They get smoked by TE's  and RB's on a consistent basis... Another thing I don't like is they don't move Garrett around enough or not at all......  Theres always some space left open for a TE or a RB that catches the ball in areas that exposes the defense where by they're getting chunks of yardage... Another thing I don't like.. Is they don't even teach these dudes how to wrap up... No one is held accountable for anything... You oughta go watch My nephew play Linebacker... He's a tackling machine whose getting some nice feelers from several schools.. Another thing that irks me is the secondary gives pass catchers way too much cushion there by letting  average pass catchers get around them for big yardage.. When they plan man.. They usually have better success.... Secondly... Discord eats up too much data on my phone so... That ain't gonna happen...

 

EDIT:... I don't expect them to be perfect... I realize your not gonna stop them on every down.. What they run looks a bit a bit like the 5-2 scheme that Fritz Shurmer ran but disguised as a 4-3 And just about everything looks like nickel packages.. DB's running all over the damn place . I get it.. the interior D line is a mess.. Now I'm not claiming to know it all like some on here... I have more important things to worry about like fucking cancer...

 

 If you don't like my response.. Oh well...

 

 Kiss My Ass!

[tiamat63]

12 hours ago, nickers said:

You're the supposed resident expert....,. I mean whats there to explain"... Delpit looks lost half the time... Joe has them playing too far off their man leaving pockets all over the field...They play too much zone coverage that leaves TE's open in the middle.. They get smoked by TE's  and RB's on a consistent basis... Another thing I don't like is they don't move Garrett around enough or not at all......  Theres always some space left open for a TE or a RB that catches the ball in areas that exposes the defense where by they're getting chunks of yardage... Another thing I don't like.. Is they don't even teach these dudes how to wrap up... No one is held accountable for anything... You oughta go watch My nephew play Linebacker... He's a tackling machine whose getting some nice feelers from several schools.. Another thing that irks me is the secondary gives pass catchers way too much cushion there by letting  average pass catchers get around them for big yardage.. When they plan man.. They usually have better success.... Secondly... Discord eats up too much data on my phone so... That ain't gonna happen...

 

EDIT:... I don't expect them to be perfect... I realize your not gonna stop them on every down.. What they run looks a bit a bit like the 5-2 scheme that Fritz Shurmer ran but disguised as a 4-3 And just about everything looks like nickel packages.. DB's running all over the damn place . I get it.. the interior D line is a mess.. Now I'm not claiming to know it all like some on here... I have more important things to worry about like fucking cancer...

 

 If you don't like my response.. Oh well...

 

 Kiss My Ass!

 

Huh? I'm a 16 year old Chinese kid, I've never seen heard of the game of football until now.  Or is it foosball?    I'm counting on you to provide some knowledge here so I can enjoy this glorious game. 

Thanks. 

[nickers]

2 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 

Huh? I'm a 16 year old Chinese kid, I've never seen heard of the game of football until now.  Or is it foosball?    I'm counting on you to provide some knowledge here so I can enjoy this glorious game. 

Thanks. 

or Futbol,... Thanks for playing

[Canton Dawg]

14 hours ago, Orion said:

 Somehow, people have to get over the fact that he's our QB.  And all that comes with it....the picks, the 230 mil, the law suits, all of it.  He's it for the foreseeable future.  And if the Holier Than Thou crowd can't hack it, then they should pretend the team moved away again.  When Watson's era in Cleveland is over they can pretend the team moved back.

I for one really don’t care about the morality, lawsuits, he said/she said bullshit.

I look at what was parlayed for the immediate future of the Browns (i.e. DW).

It was a classic gesture of making a big move for an immediate Super Bowl appearance.

Which in theory is an ok move, provided the Browns were just a QB upgrade away.

I said last year, we were weak on the DL and HC positions….and here we are.

So now we’re in NFL purgatory with no 1st round picks and stuck with a big contract going forward.

Jimmy and AB rolled the dice and came up snake eyes.

My gut tells me this was a bad move, but being a Browns fan we seem to be eternal optimists.

We think it’s raining but in reality it’s Haslam pissing on the fans…again.

 

[nickers]

9 minutes ago, Canton Dawg said:

I for one really don’t care about the morality, lawsuits, he said/she said bullshit.

I look at what was parlayed for the immediate future of the Browns (i.e. DW).

It was a classic gesture of making a big move for an immediate Super Bowl appearance.

Which in theory is an ok move, provided the Browns were just a QB upgrade away.

I said last year, we were weak on the DL and HC positions….and here we are.

So now we’re in NFL purgatory with no 1st round picks and stuck with a big contract going forward.

Jimmy and AB rolled the dice and came up snake eyes.

My gut tells me this was a bad move, but being a Browns fan we seem to be eternal optimists.

We think it’s raining but in reality it’s Haslam pissing on the fans…again.

 

Thank you!

[Orion]

6 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

Jimmy and AB rolled the dice and came up snake eyes.

We don't know that yet.  And we won't know it until this time next year.

[Canton Dawg]

17 hours ago, Orion said:

We don't know that yet.  And we won't know it until this time next year.

I was referring to the SB appearance this year.

That ship has sailed.

[Flugel]

On 12/13/2022 at 7:59 AM, nickers said:

Which gets to a question I have.. We have arguably the best running attack since the days of Mack and Byner and if you want to take that further.. Chubb is the best back we've had since Jimmy Brown...We have Watson who is said to be a top 5 QB in all the NFL landscape currently.. My question is are we gonna become a pass happy team to appease Watson  , or.. Will we remain a run first first team with Chubb and Hunt presumably..  The record has shown that Kevvy neutered Cousin and under his tutiledge..... Cousins was never going to reach full potential under Shitpantski... And we are seeing evidence of this in Minny... What makes anyone think DW will reach his potential under Shitpantski at this point? I personally think Kevvy neuters this team... And if Kevvy remains... What makes anyone think DW wants to stay here?... I get the need for a franchise QB... But we have seen under optimal conditions we can win with Brissett,, If only we had a stalwart defense like B'more and Pittsburgh historically puts together. I mean Trent Dilfer and Joe Flacco weren't anything special. Yet they won championships... We've seen theres more than one road to Mecca.. But Kevvy just instills chest hair ripping annoyance and aggravation at this juncture....

Neutered. 😆 👍  Well applied! I might have to borrow that term a couple hundred times.  

As for our Head Coach, I mean Offensive Coordinator, I mean I just walked into the kitchen and forgot why I did so. When it's time to execute a play - the play called needs to match the personnel and situation.  This example does not: 4th and 1 where a FG on the road was very advisable - isn't the time to try to prove you have balls.  We fans are just white noise though so here comes a QB right off the bench to have the defense thinking he's gonna sneak it;  only to overthrow the WR in the end zone.  End result?  No points to punctuate the collective effort put into a drive. This is a banged up unit where fractions of Teller and Conklin are struggling to play through injuries to the lyrics "well I'm half the man I used to be."  That's what was lining up to the right of the back up Center on a day Cincy's DT/IDL DJ Reader would dominate our offense to the extent he closed it entirely.  Anyway, these guys needed to be rewarded with points and they were not.  Our HC, I mean OC wanted to get cute and show the fan base he can take a QB that isn't warmed up to throw a TD pass while we were still waiting on Watson's 1st TD pass as a Cleveland Brown. 

The situation (part II) was when the game began with our defense frustrating Burrow again as Cincy couldn't move the ball during the very first possession of the game (knowing Cleveland gets the 2nd half kickoff) - was giving the Browns a chance to go up 2 possessions.  However, this was waived by a decision to get cute and try a play that looked like it might have been dress rehearsed once.  It set the tone for the rest of the day.

I'm still not even sure Stefanski (THE HEAD COACH allegedly) is aware that our Special Teams roughed the kicker/punter at the 5 yard line.  He was too busy looking at the laminated spreadsheet in his hand for the next play he was going to call.

This is what happens when you have a Head Coach that doesn't understand which one of his coordinators needs the hand holding (clearly Priefer on the STs) while Woods and the defense were coming off their best 2 games.  Again, Alex Van Pelt (our Offensive Coordinator) called the plays in the ONLY playoff game this franchise has won since the mid 90s.  The offense scored 41 points of the 48 scored that day; and they didn't turn over the football even once while Ben Rapen and Ridin threw 5 INTs in front of his home crowd.

My overall conclusion is I would like a Head Coach that empowers his Coordinators; but lights their fannies when or where needed. Instead, I get a strong impression that Office Depot-Desta doesn't want that kind of traditional set-up at all.  He's married to spreadsheets that you commonly see burying Corporate America today.  You know, when a new hotshot comes in from Tea Sip State with an adorable resume showing WHO he knows instead of what he knows. This type likes to blow off the front lines working directly with the customers, patients and clients and slap a time line on how long you should converse with them.  Mind you, they've never once sat in the shoes of the front line to experience/understand all that can come up when dealing with a diversified population in terms of age, culture, socio-economic status, etc.  So, they power play everyone they SHOULD be learning from to stick their nose even further up the crack of whoever hired/wanted them.  In this case, Office Depot-desta who recommended Stefanski knowing he'll have the "yes sir" guy he needs instead of the Head Coach WE need.  So, all the while our Owner remains stuck on pause with listening to and whole-heartedly trusting the wrong people in his FO - we can't even have a Head Coach.   That being the case, we CAN remain held hostage to the wrong guy calling the plays while the guy Coordinating our Special Teams remains totally empowered to throw gasoline on the dumpster fire he's in charge of every week.  

We have the worst owner in professional sports.  Everything below him is a symptom of that.  Everything! Don't like Johnny Manziel?  How'd he get here?  Don't like Baker Mayfield?  How'd he get here?  Don't like Deshaun Watson? How'd he get here? Don't like Don't like Kevin Stefanski?  How'd he get here? Don't like Office Depot-desta?  How'd he get here?  Don't like hope?  You're exactly where you need to be - in park...

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Flugel
typo corrected from when CAN to we CAN in bold

[nickers]

8 hours ago, Flugel said:

Neutered. 😆 👍  Well applied! I might have to borrow that term a couple hundred times.  

As for our Head Coach, I mean Offensive Coordinator, I mean I just walked into the kitchen and forgot why I did so. When it's time to execute a play - the play called needs to match the personnel and situation.  This example does not: 4th and 1 where a FG on the road was very advisable - isn't the time to try to prove you have balls.  We fans are just white noise though so here comes a QB right off the bench to have the defense thinking he's gonna sneak it;  only to overthrow the WR in the end zone.  End result?  No points to punctuate the collective effort put into a drive. This is a banged up unit where fractions of Teller and Conklin are struggling to play through injuries to the lyrics "well I'm half the man I used to be."  That's what was lining up to the right of the back up Center on a day Cincy's DT/IDL DJ Reader would dominate our offense to the extent he closed it entirely.  Anyway, these guys needed to be rewarded with points and they were not.  Our HC, I mean OC wanted to get cute and show the fan base he can take a QB that isn't warmed up to throw a TD pass while we were still waiting on Watson's 1st TD pass as a Cleveland Brown. 

The situation (part II) was when the game began with our defense frustrating Burrow again as Cincy couldn't move the ball during the very first possession of the game (knowing Cleveland gets the 2nd half kickoff) - was giving the Browns a chance to go up 2 possessions.  However, this was waived by a decision to get cute and try a play that looked like it might have been dress rehearsed once.  It set the tone for the rest of the day.

I'm still not even sure Stefanski (THE HEAD COACH allegedly) is aware that our Special Teams roughed the kicker/punter at the 5 yard line.  He was too busy looking at the laminated spreadsheet in his hand for the next play he was going to call.

This is what happens when you have a Head Coach that doesn't understand which one of his coordinators needs the hand holding (clearly Priefer on the STs) while Woods and the defense were coming off their best 2 games.  Again, Alex Van Pelt (our Offensive Coordinator) called the plays in the ONLY playoff game this franchise has won since the mid 90s.  The offense scored 41 points of the 48 scored that day; and they didn't turn over the football even once while Ben Rapen and Ridin threw 5 INTs in front of his home crowd.

My overall conclusion is I would like a Head Coach that empowers his Coordinators; but lights their fannies when or where needed. Instead, I get a strong impression that Office Depot-Desta doesn't want that kind of traditional set-up at all.  He's married to spreadsheets that you commonly see burying Corporate America today.  You know, when a new hotshot comes in from Tea Sip State with an adorable resume showing WHO he knows instead of what he knows. This type likes to blow off the front lines working directly with the customers, patients and clients and slap a time line on how long you should converse with them.  Mind you, they've never once sat in the shoes of the front line to experience/understand all that can come up when dealing with a diversified population in terms of age, culture, socio-economic status, etc.  So, they power play everyone they SHOULD be learning from to stick their nose even further up the crack of whoever hired/wanted them.  In this case, Office Depot-desta who recommended Stefanski knowing he'll have the "yes sir" guy he needs instead of the Head Coach WE need.  So, all the while our Owner remains stuck on pause with listening to and whole-heartedly trusting the wrong people in his FO - we can't even have a Head Coach.   That being the case, when CAN remain held hostage to the wrong guy calling the plays while the guy Coordinating our Special Teams remains totally empowered to throw gasoline on the dumpster fire he's in charge of every week.  

We have the worst owner in professional sports.  Everything below him is a symptom of that.  Everything! Don't like Johnny Manziel?  How'd he get here?  Don't like Baker Mayfield?  How'd he get here?  Don't like Deshaun Watson? How'd he get here? Don't like Don't like Kevin Stefanski?  How'd he get here? Don't like Office Depot-desta?  How'd he get here?  Don't like hope?  You're exactly where you need to be - in park...

 

I laughed my ass off reading this post despite the fact I agree with every point you made... Again... It almost leads me to the chicken before the egg debate.. "where are we" And Kevvy remind me of Jake from state farm.. "Hes a coach so..." If you follow my sick analogy... But as you stated numerous times.. You lay this all at Jimmies feet. He can change the window dressing year in and year out... The net results are always the same...

[The Cysko Kid]

On 12/12/2022 at 7:22 AM, lodilobo said:

It's not hard to look much better than he was against Houston....79.1 qb rating?.....not anything I would get excited about. I can't wait to see that jump from this to..."elite, top 5 qb". 

I hope you CAN wait because you're not going to see that ever. Dude is not an elite top 5 qb. He had one great season years ago and his team went 4-12. He's not top five. He MIGHT be the second best qb currently in the division but then again he might not be. Is he an upgrade from mayfield? Yes. Kind of. Is he better than burrow? Lol, No. Is he better than Jackson? I don't personally think so. Some people might. I don't. 

[syd]

27 minutes ago, The Cysko Kid said:

I hope you CAN wait because you're not going to see that ever. Dude is not an elite top 5 qb. He had one great season years ago and his team went 4-12. He's not top five. He MIGHT be the second best qb currently in the division but then again he might not be. Is he an upgrade from mayfield? Yes. Kind of. Is he better than burrow? Lol, No. Is he better than Jackson? I don't personally think so. Some people might. I don't. 

 

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

On 12/13/2022 at 10:22 AM, Turkey Jones said:

The quote at issue is “Ali purposely avoided Marciano”. You know in fact that statement is impossible and total nonsense.

AGREED