TRICH traded to colts

[Tour2ma]

Two things can happen. Hoyer plays good and they decide they dont need to draft a franchise qb next year. Which makes the TRich trade pointless, or Hoyer is bad and they have to backtrack and name Weeden the starter again.

 

What im saying doesnt effect if they draft a qb, but neither did trading Richardson. If Hoyer goes out and wins 5 games and Browns get 5th pick. Do they still get the franchise qb? If your sitting behind Jax, Oak, Tb, and Min do you still get the franchise qb? This trade had no effect on the Browns getting a franchise qb.

 

Compare the underlined. Pick one...

 

If 5th pick does not put us in position for their guy, then the TR trade gave them more ammo to get a trade done. So it does "have an effect".

 

If Hoyer turns out to be the answer (he won't be IMO), then we have a late-ish #1 for other needs.

[jagforlife85]

Someone new coming on here, posting positive things about the browns, saying we got a good deal for Richardson - must be a troll, right?

 

 

You guys could easily be 2-0 right now; you were in many games last year as well. You have a team that can win consistently at the line of scrimmage, you have a potential #1 receiver in Josh Gordon, an emerging talent that fits into Norv's vertical scheme in Jordan Cameron, I like this team a lot, just my opinion however.

 

[djdawg2010]

So right! Look at KC

 

 

Absolutely! Now it's still early, but they've already exceeded their win total from last year! I think Chud can be a good coach, but why didn't Banner pursue Andy Reid to coach this team? Why didn't they grab Alex Smith in free agency? I would have been ALL OVER that!

[gftChris]

 

 

You guys could easily be 2-0 right now; you were in many games last year as well. You have a team that can win consistently at the line of scrimmage, you have a potential #1 receiver in Josh Gordon, an emerging talent that fits into Norv's vertical scheme in Jordan Cameron, I like this team a lot, just my opinion however.

It's just funny, the glass-half-full guys on here (I guess that includes me) will say similar things, that we're probably 4 or 5 players away (QB, OG, RB, CB, S) away from having a legitimately competitive team, and the glass-half-empty types will shoot it down, and we'll have the same debate over and again. Just makes me chuckle someone comes innocently wandering in to all this!

[ExclDawg]

Okay, after the initial shock has worn off, and I've had a chance to listen to quite a few "experts" say that this is actually a better trade for the Browns, I'm sort of coming around on this trade. Here's why I like and don't like it ...

 

Reasons why I don't like it:

1) The obvious reason ... here we are hitting the "reset" button just 2-week into another season and we've given up on a top 3 pick just 17 games into his career. For us fans, that have to deal with a reset every 2-3 years, it would be nice if we just STUCK with something for a few years, and actually give it a chance to work.

 

2) We essentially used a 2012 #3 pick, a 4th rounder, 5th rounder and 7th rounder to trade DOWN to a #20'ish pick in the 2014 draft. And since it's happened so close to the actual draft, it feels a lot like hearing "There has been a trade" on Draft Day, and finding out that this was the trade we made. We're pretty much throwing up the white flag here and saying, "Yup ... we screwed up the 2012 draft royally"

 

Reasons why I DO like it:

 

1) We essentially screwed up the 2012 draft royally. We gave up three later picks to move up a few slots and take a RB in a QB-controlled league, then over-drafted a 29 year old QB in the late first round. The Front Office was pretty much screaming, "we've got one year left to prove ourselves before we get canned, so we're just going to go all-out in trying to build instant offense". So we ended up with an over-drafted RB, that we're trying to fit into a league that wants you to pass the ball 50+ times a game, and a rookie quarterback that's older than Aaron Rodgers.

 

2) You don't win Super Bowls with franchise runningbacks! Seriously, who was the last franchise-type RB to win one? The two biggest "Franchise-type" RBs of the last 10 years are so are Peterson and LT, and they couldn't even make it to the Super Bowl. LT came the closest, and that was because Philip Rivers had become a franchise-type QB by then. I really didn't like the TR pick back when we made it. Not because I didn't like TR, but because i didn't want us to build an offense around a RB.

 

3) Trent was starting to get William Green Disease already, and is a potential bust. On top of the 3.5 YPC/65 yards per game stats that have been tossed out there already, you could sort of see hesitation in Trent's running already. He wasn't hitting creases. He wasn't taking what there was and squeezing out 4 yards with momentum. He was dancing around and waiting for big holes to open up. This is what Green used to do. Dance in the backfield and wait for some giant hole to open up, rather than hit he hole that was there and squeeze out a few yards just by moving his weight forward. Even when he did get the holes, he didn't seem like he could burst through to the second level or get loose.

 

4) Trent was already starting to be a bit "injury prone". Not much to say here, but he was already showing signs that he wasn't as durable as we were hoping.

 

5) RBs are replaceable and have short shelf-lives anyway. Of the top 20 rushing leaders last year, only about a third were drafted in the first round. Of the top 20 QBs, only Brady, Romo and Fitzpatrick were draft later than the first round or very early 2nd round. It's just a QB driven league. Of the top 20 rushers, only AP had a QB that WASN'T as equally good (or better) and still made the playoffs.

 

6) We got something of value back. This is what the pundits are talking about. Rather than sit on a #3 pick and HOPING he turns into Adrian Peterson in a league that needs QBs not RBs, we're taking the bold move of cutting our losses while we can still get something of value back. If we were to wait till the end of the year, or even another season or two ... it's doubtful we get a first round pick for a guy that's averaging 3.5 YPC and seems to be prone to injury. Now we've got two first rounders, it what is supposed to be a pretty strong draft. Honestly though, if TR continues to do in Indy what he was doing here, what do you think his trade value becomes? What if he picks up another major injury?

[Mark O]

 

 

Absolutely! Now it's still early, but they've already exceeded their win total from last year! I think Chud can be a good coach, but why didn't Banner pursue Andy Reid to coach this team? Why didn't they grab Alex Smith in free agency? I would have been ALL OVER that!

 

Alex Smith wasn't a free agent. The Chiefs and Andy Reid traded for him. I wouldn't have pursued Andy Reid...he looked so overdone in Philly the last few years I didn't think he would be a good choice. The other thing to keep in mind in KC, they won 2 games last year with 6 pro bowlers on the roster. They were truly only a QB away from being fairly decent.

[Tour2ma]

Good Morning Browns fans

 

Your team is merely a competent QB away from being a legit contender; I like the Browns chance of finding one next year. Both of our organizations have struggled for an extremely long time, but it finally looks like there are better days ahead for both of us.

 

 

Morning...

 

Agreed with most of post, but we are more than a "competant QB" away... and we know it. Without upgrades on O-line and WR we are a great QB away.

 

Also, excuse me, but you came late to the party in '94... and with a sweetheart deal to boot. We have more suffering in a pinky than you have in your entire body.

 

But thanks anyway... and don't take this the wrong way, but...

 

... your Jags' helmets are FUGLY... What's up with the half-flat/ half-gloss two-tone look?

[419lions]

Tour sorry I wasnt clear. What I meant is you said none of what I said effected if they draft a qb or not. My point is the Richardson trade doesnt effect if they draft a qb either. If your at #5 and say the Indy pick is #18. You think a team that also needs a franchise qb i.e Jax trades down to 5 for the #17 pick? I doubt it. They cant be that dumb to be crossing their fingers a tm will trade with them to get a qb. So my point is im not buying the qb thing at all.

[Tour2ma]

I wonder if SF would have taken TR for Alex Smith... and maybe have thrown in a pick (2nd? 3rd?)...

[jagforlife85]

 

It's just funny, the glass-half-full guys on here (I guess that includes me) will say similar things, that we're probably 4 or 5 players away (QB, OG, RB, CB, S) away from having a legitimately competitive team, and the glass-half-empty types will shoot it down, and we'll have the same debate over and again. Just makes me chuckle someone comes innocently wandering in to all this!

 

 

Those debates are ongoing on every team (that is struggling) message board. However, when you're competing in just about every game you're playing in that is an obvious sign a team is close to contending, you simply can't look at records as records can be deceiving. The Chiefs and Jaguars won 2 games last year, the Jaguars were a true 2-Win team talent wise while the Chiefs weren't, and it's showing this year. Your team has a lot pieces (especially on the defensive side of the ball), a solid offensive line, and weapons that can win on the outside and down the middle, you are in a lot better position than most teams are. You make the argument that if the Browns had a QB it'd be a two team race (Bengals and Browns) for the AFC North title.

[Mark O]

I wonder if SF would have taken TR for Alex Smith... and maybe have thrown in a pick (2nd? 3rd?)...

 

Doubtful...they have Frank Gore.

[jagforlife85]

 

Morning...

 

Agreed with most of post, but we are more than a "competant QB" away... and we know it. Without upgrades on O-line and WR we are a great QB away.

 

Also, excuse me, but you came late to the party in '94... and with a sweetheart deal to boot. We have more suffering in a pinky than you have in your entire body.

 

But thanks anyway... and don't take this the wrong way, but...

 

... your Jags' helmets are FUGLY... What's up with the half-flat/ half-gloss two-tone look?

 

 

Haha none taken, I'm not a huge fan of the helmets but hopefully winning will help. In regards to your offensive line, there aren't many teams in the NFL that have good offensive lines; I believe yours is good enough to compete. I do agree that with the WR position, you can use another dynamic talent on the outside or in the slot, but you're not in bad shape right now with what you have. You guys will probably go QB/WR or QB/OL with your first two picks in the 2014 NFL draft, and the QB's at the top end of the draft are definitely good enough to make an immediate impact in this league,

[Tour2ma]

Point taken... like I said... I was dreaming while watching last nite's game. Then again he's a 30 yo RB with an injury history. TR would have made a heck of a near-term back up/ long-term heir apparent... Oh well...

 

And I was simultaneously thankful Chip Kelly "used us" rather than joined us. I had this epiphany that a pace of play that works with 20 yo's won't necessarily work with 30 yo's. Then there's that whole read offense thing that I give another two seasons to fizzle.

[hoorta]

 

Those debates are ongoing on every team (that is struggling) message board. However, when you're competing in just about every game you're playing in that is an obvious sign a team is close to contending, you simply can't look at records as records can be deceiving. The Chiefs and Jaguars won 2 games last year, the Jaguars were a true 2-Win team talent wise while the Chiefs weren't, and it's showing this year. Your team has a lot pieces (especially on the defensive side of the ball), a solid offensive line, and weapons that can win on the outside and down the middle, you are in a lot better position than most teams are. You make the argument that if the Browns had a QB it'd be a two team race (Bengals and Browns) for the AFC North title.

 

Actually not, but thanks for giving us reasons for optimism. Without Richardson, we have no running game to speak of, Greg Little has been the reincarnation of Braylon Edwards this year, Cousins positively stinks @ RG, and we need a decent corner to compliment Haden- Skrine is more of a nickel back type. a decent saftey opposite Ward wouldn't hurt either. Yes, I know every team has holes somewhere.

 

Sure, we're going QB shopping next year- problem is the Natives are getting mighty restless. Down the road this trade might come out golden, but it's not going to help us much this year. Add in Lombardi has to prove he can do better than drafting guys like Robert Gallery. He has about one stud pick in his 20 year draft resume- Namdi Asomugah.

 

See you in December for the Bridgewater Bowl.

[Legacy Fan]

We are in a lose-lose.

 

1. If Hoyer is a franchise QB, there was no need to deal Trent.

2. If Hoyer lays a turd, then Lombardi looks like an idiot (for blowing Hoyer as much as he has), and he's absolutely not the guy I want looking for and drafting our franchise QB in April.

 

3. If Hoyer is just ok, then he plays well enough to eek us out 5-6 wins and out of the running for a top QB in the draft. Nobody is taking just our extra (late) first rounder to move up 5-6 slots to the #1 pick.

 

Wish this move happened before or after the season.

[gftChris]

Tour sorry I wasnt clear. What I meant is you said none of what I said effected if they draft a qb or not. My point is the Richardson trade doesnt effect if they draft a qb either. If your at #5 and say the Indy pick is #18. You think a team that also needs a franchise qb i.e Jax trades down to 5 for the #17 pick? I doubt it. They cant be that dumb to be crossing their fingers a tm will trade with them to get a qb. So my point is im not buying the qb thing at all.

This draft could be loaded with 'not-quite-Andrew-Luck' calibre QBs. I feel like unless the FO fall in love with one of them, we stay where we are (at 3-6) and take whoever's there, then just BPA for a few picks.

[jagforlife85]

 

Actually not, but thanks for giving us reasons for optimism. Without Richardson, we have no running game to speak of, Greg Little has been the reincarnation of Braylon Edwards this year, Cousins positively stinks @ RG, and we need a decent corner to compliment Haden- Skrine is more of a nickel back type. a decent saftey opposite Ward wouldn't hurt either. Yes, I know every team has holes somewhere.

 

Sure, we're going QB shopping next year- problem is the Natives are getting mighty restless. Down the road this trade might come out golden, but it's not going to help us much this year. Add in Lombardi has to prove he can do better than drafting guys like Robert Gallery. He has about one stud pick in his 20 year draft resume- Namdi Asomugah.

 

See you in December for the Bridgewater Bowl.

 

You guys didn't have much of a running game with Trent Richardson, I know it's early in his career but he's averaged 3.5 YPC, I think he was overrated in college and had no business going 3rd overall. Getting a 1st round pick for a middle of the road running back is absolutely outstanding, you guys have a lot of reason for optimism. Offensive guard and RB are two of the easiest positions to scout and fill in the NFL; you'll have no trouble filling those positions. I think the Browns brass (much like the Jaguars brass) recognize the elite QB prospects in the 2014 NFL draft and are trying to position themselves accordingly, I don't think you can blame them as the quickest way to the Lombardi trophy is through a franchise QB. Teddy Twatwater is one of the best QB prospects in the last 10 years, if Marcus Mariota declares he'll also be considered one of the best, I know you guys (much like the Jags) have suffered for a long time, but if there is a year to be bad, this is the year.

 

[hoorta]

Why would I want to give someone who wants a refund full price + for his tickets...you make zero sense I'll be in my nice and warm in my vibrating lounger sipping my Jameson Rarest Vintage Reserve Whiskey watching football entertainment and I'll pick up cheap tickets outside when the attendance fall..

 

 

Well, possibly you can understand some of the season ticket holders got damn POed about shelling out their cash- only to see the Front Office effectively throw the season in the toilet mid-September. Over reaction? Sure.

 

6-8 wins this year even with Richardson? Probably. Wheres the commitment to winning now, not in 2-3 years? We've been though how many 5 year plans, and I'm sick and tired of it. "Tanking for Teddy" excuse me while I barf. This team starts royally sucking, and I won't even bother watching the games- I'll hop on my bicycle for some long rides on these nice fall Sundays and catch the game later on DVR.

 

No need to be an ass about things when 1\2 the city wants to vent.

[Shep]

This is the Higdon article, correct? It's fantastic. We were starting to make excuses for Richardson like we did for all our quarterbacks. In truth, he's a very old 23 with a lot of surgeries... and not at all special at a position already being diminished. The pick got a little crazier with each passing month.

 

Getting a first for him? Brilliant. Trading 5 for 4 and 4 for 3 in a better draft? Brilliant. Banner/Lombardi are going well outside the box but it sure looks smart to me.

 

 

This is sadly enlightening, especially the last play shown:

 

http://www.draftbrowns.com/2013/06/browns-film-room-trent-richardson/

 

 

After looking at this, I'm starting to think maybe our Run Blocking isn't so bad - look at the size of some of those holes opened (the last one you could drive a truck through).

[419lions]

Gft you coukd have done that and kept TRich. Also the major issue is the players in the locker room quitting on the coach,fo that quit on them after 2 games. Not to mention Paterson was telling players not to trust Banner and now they see why.

[Shep]

Here's what I like about this regime:

 

1. They know the 2012 draft was Retarded. Excuse the political incorrectness.

2. They fully understand you can't win in this league without a "championship caliber QB," as the banner/Banner says in the War Room. As Chuckie said, "After that, everything else seems easy."

3. As to number 2, ask the Colts. Manning, playoffs. In between, 1-15. Luck, playoffs. The Browns have basically been the "in between" part since Kosar's peak.

4. They know the Colts were winning with a guy named Ballard, nobody can remember who plays RB for the Patriots, the Packers have won with Zombo playing RB, and there were 5 consecutive Super Bowls without a single 1,000 yard rusher (and their teams averaged #23 in rushing).

5. They actually understand the analytics of winning, the actual fact: Teams that win pass aggressively to take first half leads and then rush the passer. It's just a stone-cold fact.

6. They looked at Richardson's 3.3 YPC and thought, "Hell, McGahee or someone off the waiver wire could get us 3.7." Did they ever really think they could get a first for TR? I doubt it. It was a full-on Godfather offer.

7. This team is being built for 2015 and the new unis and stadium upgrades. We're going to bring in some serious talent next offseason, turning those 10 picks into two special players, one at #1. We're also going to have more cap space than anybody in the NFL and will be compelled by rules to spend it. I expect a serious haul... including a very good #2 cornerback, a very good WR, and a very good RG. And the clock's ticking on Schwartz, too. Teddy Twatwater's gonna walk into one hell of a sitch.

[JAFBF]

 

alright in everybody's eyes now TR is/was a bum. i think the guys was class act. no not worth a #3 pick. no not a RB dynamo.

 

BUT in his defense, do you think this might be a miscommunication, a RB not getting the play call right?

 

i mean zombo could have made a yard in that hole.

 

I don't think Trent is a bum, I think he's a beast, but he just hasn't developed his vision.

 

Maybe he never will (develop vision), but if/when he does, he'll be something.

[Kingcob]

First off..Holmgren would quit if the vending machine ran out of ring dings...

 

He helped craft the drafting of T Rich, of course he liked the pick. Many of us thought it was a stupid pick and the current FO seems to be of the same mindset.

 

I was pretty happy with the FO before that TRich Weeden draft (and shurmur in general), but seriously...what was that? A RB #3 and a 30 year old rookie QB with a lot of questionmarks?

 

Who cares what Mike Holmgren has to say? It never seemed like he liked Cleveland much even when he was making millions to ride around in his rascal scooter smoking cigars.

[Tour2ma]

Agree he was not a "bum"... but how some think our win total this season dropped when he was traded mystifies me.

[JAFBF]

Here's what I like about this regime:

 

1. They know the 2012 draft was Retarded. Excuse the political incorrectness.

2. They fully understand you can't win in this league without a "championship caliber QB," as the banner/Banner says in the War Room. As Chuckie said, "After that, everything else seems easy."

3. As to number 2, ask the Colts. Manning, playoffs. In between, 1-15. Luck, playoffs. The Browns have basically been the "in between" part since Kosar's peak.

4. They know the Colts were winning with a guy named Ballard, nobody can remember who plays RB for the Patriots, the Packers have won with Zombo playing RB, and there were 5 consecutive Super Bowls without a single 1,000 yard rusher (and their teams averaged #23 in rushing).

5. They actually understand the analytics of winning, the actual fact: Teams that win pass aggressively to take first half leads and then rush the passer. It's just a stone-cold fact.

6. They looked at Richardson's 3.3 YPC and thought, "Hell, McGahee or someone off the waiver wire could get us 3.7." Did they ever really think they could get a first for TR? I doubt it. It was a full-on Godfather offer.

7. This team is being built for 2015 and the new unis and stadium upgrades. We're going to bring in some serious talent next offseason, turning those 10 picks into two special players, one at #1. We're also going to have more cap space than anybody in the NFL and will be compelled by rules to spend it. I expect a serious haul... including a very good #2 cornerback, a very good WR, and a very good RG. And the clock's ticking on Schwartz, too. Teddy Twatwater's gonna walk into one hell of a sitch.

 

Agree the Draft trades/upgrades were a good move - 2013 Draft was weak, 2014 is rich.

 

I'm not sure if we're actually going to end up with two #1's, as I think we may need to bundle some picks to move up.

 

 

#1 - The 2012 first round was total stupidity.

#5 - They actually had Jackson (who we just cut) at RB didn't they? Even so, it supports your point.

#6 - I'm thinking McGahee has better production than Trent as well.

#7 - I actually think we'll be competitive next year, and I think getting Cousins out at RG will help Schwartz.

 

 

 

 

We get a QB, CB, WR as top priority and it'll shift the win/loss record.

 

Throw in a good RB and OG(s) and now we're looking at doing some damage.

[JAFBF]

Agree he was not a "bum"... but how some think our win total this season dropped when he was traded mystifies me.

 

After finding that Blocking analysis I linked, I want to see how McGahee does.

 

 

Hate to say it, but with Gordon, Luavao, and Rubin back and Hoyer at QB, I'm starting to think we win this Sunday.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Peterson also has a 2,000 yard rushing season to his credit- get back to me when Richardson can say the same.

 

 

 

Once.

 

 

He's also only played a full season three times in his career.

 

 

I'm not comparing the two because AP is clearly in a different league. I'm saying that, through two games, even the best RB in the league has been shitty. And people complaining about Trent being injury prone tend to forget that AP is as well.

 

It's a two way street. You can argue both ways. I'm for the trade because it makes sense and you can get quality RB's anywhere. I'm against the fact that we laid 14 million for a Trent and got rid of him after 17 games.

[Tour2ma]

This is sadly enlightening, especially the last play shown:

http://www.draftbrowns.com/2013/06/browns-film-room-trent-richardson/

After looking at this, I'm starting to think maybe our Run Blocking isn't so bad - look at the size of some of those holes opened (the last one you could drive a truck through).

 

First, that was last year when our line was relatively intact, so no... it was not as bad.

 

Second, actually the hole in that last example was drawn up between Schwartz and the pulling Greco. There's a crease there that should have been hit hard before the LB Greco picked up could spin inside as he ultimately did. It was the only analysis that the blogger missed.

 

Lombardi is not our primary drafter... Joe Banner is, along with guys like Ray Farmer, John Sandusky, and Ken Kovash. Also, veteran coaches such as Norv Turner and Ray Horton. Our player personnel department is filled with quality guys, including a mix of "football guys" and "analytics" guys. I would imagine Banner pulled the trigger on this trade b/c he is smart enough to realize TRich is not worth a 1st round pick, and we may have gotten a steal.

 

Don't forget, while us fans have to go through this "rebuilding" sh** again and again, this is theses guys' first season. They are trully trying to re-build, and I believe they are trying to do it correctly, and quickly.

 

Spot on.. and well said. Isn't Lombardi our "cap wizard"... or is that Banner as well?

 

i agree with the old newbie that we have to give every shot available to see if weeden can actually run this team. if he looks good and the losses aren't on him, then why even consider the dreaded 'drafting a franchise QB' next year. and the gamble that it is. we can't be doing this shit every 3 years. that's this teams problem.

 

i'd rather finish the defense off with a corner and safety, get the best right guard available and wide receiver(s). picks in no necessary order.

 

One way or another Weeden will get his second shot this year to make the Offense his... I have no doubt of that. Also have little doubt that he will fail... again...

 

But this is the year to make a QB determination and get "our guy". The more we improve our D and Offense around whichever QB we have (or can get cheap), the better our record will be and the harder it will be to draft "our guy".

 

Here's what I like about this regime:

 

3. ... ask the Colts. Manning, playoffs. In between, 1-15. Luck, playoffs. The Browns have basically been the "in between" part since Kosar's peak.

6. Did they ever really think they could get a first for TR? I doubt it. It was a full-on Godfather offer.

7. This team is being built for 2015 and the new unis and stadium upgrades. We're going to bring in some serious talent next offseason, turning those 10 And the clock's ticking on Schwartz, too.

 

3. You're forgetting the DA peak... more of a spike really though...

6. I doubt it, too.... but did Irsay wake up to find a severed horse head in his bed?

7. You just had to bring up the uni's... didn't ya?

10. Agree on Schwartz.... I'd actually like to see what Butler can do at RT

[jrb12711]

Once.

 

 

He's also only played a full season three times in his career.

 

 

I'm not comparing the two because AP is clearly in a different league. I'm saying that, through two games, even the best RB in the league has been shitty. And people complaining about Trent being injury prone tend to forget that AP is as well.

 

It's a two way street. You can argue both ways. I'm for the trade because it makes sense and you can get quality RB's anywhere. I'm against the fact that we laid 14 million for a Trent and got rid of him after 17 games.

 

+1. This is really how I've felt about the trade since it happened. I mean his trade value was only going to go down but I at least wanted to see the guy play half a season this year before throwing in the towel.

[Umadogg]

This team starts royally sucking, and I won't even bother watching the games- I'll hop on my bicycle for some long rides on these nice fall Sundays and catch the game later on DVR.

 

Pretty sure Zombo.com was created to give Brownie fans something to do on Sundays until December 1st.

 

You should give it a look.