Official Browns QB Prospect Discussion!

[Shep]

Tour, college and the NFL are two different things entirely as far as the dominance of the QB position. So-so quarterbacks at Florida (three times under 2 coaches!), Tennessee (the year AFTER Manning), Oklahoma, and a lot of other big programs have won it all. There's no weighted draft and about 100 D1 programs instead of 32, so you like your chances of winning championships by simply being bigger and/or faster than everybody else... instead of waging war over 5 or so legit high school QBs a year.

 

College is coach/recruiter driven; pros are quarterback driven.

[miktoxic]

Depends on how good they are at avoiding contact and how smart they are....Manziel seems to avoid contact and he may be the smartest of the whole bunch.

dude he's playing against college players. in the NFL one big hit by soemone 300lbs+ and it's all over for johnny football.

 

and believe me there will be a lot of big mandikas standing in line waiting to punish that spoiled brat.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Tour, college and the NFL are two different things entirely as far as the dominance of the QB position. So-so quarterbacks at Florida (three times under 2 coaches!), Tennessee (the year AFTER Manning), Oklahoma, and a lot of other big programs have won it all. There's no weighted draft and about 100 D1 programs instead of 32, so you like your chances of winning championships by simply being bigger and/or faster than everybody else... instead of waging war over 5 or so legit high school QBs a year.

 

College is coach/recruiter driven; pros are quarterback driven.

Please, tell us one more time. We didn't get your point.

[Shep]

Unlike the SEC?

 

dude he's playing against college players. in the NFL one big hit by soemone 300lbs+ and it's all over for johnny football.

 

and believe me there will be a lot of big mandikas standing in line waiting to punish that spoiled brat.

[Shep]

I/we have never made that comparison. You need to hold your gotchas 'til you got one!

 

Please, tell us one more time. We didn't get your point.

[thenew23]

http://walterfootball.com/draft2014.php

 

Walt changing his tune on Carr... here's his updated mock for the Browns...

 

1a #12 - Derek Carr, QB Fresno St

1b #26 - A.J. Johnson, ILB Tennessee

2- Lamarcus Joyner, S FSU

3a - Michael Dyer, RB LOU

3b - Odell Beckham, WR, LSU

 

I like the Carr and Johnson picks (as of now). We need a WR somewhere in there, probably even earlier, but Beckham is a hell of a player. Also, I'd rather have OLine over RB, but it is just a mock and a much better one than his past couple...

[Shep]

I like all the picks on offense a lot. We have a #1 and a #2 target (Gordon/Cameron) so adding a guy like Beckham to go with Little, Bess, and Benjamin seems about right.

 

My problem is Walter taking a 2nd round safety when our starters are playing great football, probably because he doesn't know who Tashaun Gipson IS! I'd take a TE there.

 

Don't mind drafting an ILB, though. We're thin. He better be able to run and cover.

 

http://walterfootball.com/draft2014.php

 

Walt changing his tune on Carr... here's his updated mock for the Browns...

 

1a #12 - Derek Carr, QB Fresno St

1b #26 - A.J. Johnson, ILB Tennessee

2- Lamarcus Joyner, S FSU

3a - Michael Dyer, RB LOU

3b - Odell Beckham, WR, LSU

 

I like the Carr and Johnson picks (as of now). We need a WR somewhere in there, probably even earlier, but Beckham is a hell of a player. Also, I'd rather have OLine over RB, but it is just a mock and a much better one than his past couple...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I like all the picks on offense a lot. We have a #1 and a #2 target (Gordon/Cameron) so adding a guy like Beckham to go with Little, Bess, and Benjamin seems about right.

 

My problem is Walter taking a 2nd round safety when our starters are playing great football, probably because he doesn't know who Tashaun Gipson IS! I'd take a TE there.

 

Don't mind drafting an ILB, though. We're thin. He better be able to run and cover.

 

I would absolutely love this draft. I have Dyer and Johnson in my last mock, and getting Carr as well as Joyner would be perfect. Honestly, Dyer is probably the best RB available in terms of talent. Johnson is the top ILB and Joyner is one of the top S. We'd be getting high quality players even into round 3.

 

Shep, Gipson has played very well, much better than I expected him to, I'll admit. But Joyner was the fastest recruit in the nation in his class and has been very productive for the Noles. He fits Horton's profile, he is a small guy who is a big hitter...but he also has the ball hawking skills of a true FS. He was recruited as a corner but his size was a hindrance, so they moved him to safety. I feel he can be very, very good.

 

To me, adding a playmaking FS would do a little more than adding a second TE. Even if Gipson is playing lights out.

[Shep]

I look at it like this: What could Joyner do so much better than Gipson that we would win more games? When Gipson is playing great in both phases and we give up a league low YPA? It's virtually impossible at that position to be SO much better than Gipson that it would actually move the dial.

 

Based on Gipson's career arc and age, I imagine he's the guy teams are looking for... not looking to bench. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

Now another TE does because you put them on the field together a LOT. You're not gonna put a third safety on the field much so you're really just trading one good player for another good player at FS.

 

I still think our defense is going to get even better, which would make them a championship defense. It's going to be tough for us to do much on that side of the ball to change or fortunes next year. We cover, we sack, we stop the run.

 

I think it's about the offense... and based on how we play with anyone not named Weeden, not really all that much. We need to run the ball better, for sure. We need our long-term solution at QB. Maybe another weapon in the pass game.

[Tour2ma]

Please, tell us one more time. We didn't get your point.

 

I did not see a point.

 

http://walterfootball.com/draft2014.php

 

1a #12 - Derek Carr, QB Fresno St - Sr.

1b #26 - A.J. Johnson, ILB Tennessee - Jr.

2- Lamarcus Joyner, S FSU - Sr.

3a - Michael Dyer, RB LOU - Jr.

3b - Odell Beckham, WR, LSU - Jr.

 

What is the value of:

 

1. A 5'8", big-hitting FS in a league that is legislating big hits in the secondary out of the game?

 

2. A RB that has been dismissed from not one, but two schools for disciplinary reasons? Would concern me even more if he declares as a Jr. rather than sticking for his Sr. year.

 

 

On the plus side Johnson is a good pick, if he comes out. Just be careful filling out that card as he could be one of up to four A.J. Johnsons in the 2014 draft.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

I did not see a point.

 

 

What is the value of:

 

1. A 5'8", big-hitting FS in a league that is legislating big hits in the secondary out of the game?

 

2. A RB that has been dismissed from not one, but two schools for disciplinary reasons? Would concern me even more if he declares as a Jr. rather than sticking for his Sr. year.

 

 

On the plus side Johnson is a good pick, if he comes out. Just be careful filling out that card as he could be one of up to four A.J. Johnsons in the 2014 draft.

He's not only a big hitter, he's one of the fastest people in the draft, a playmaker and, by all account, a "student of the game". He'd be a first round player if he wasn't 5'8. He has all of the intangibles you'd want, but in a smaller package. He's Earl Thomas with Buster Skrine's speed.

 

Dyer is a physical specimen. I agree that his off the field problems are worrisome, and I probably wouldn't take him higher than our first third rounder. I think we're at the point where we can risk going for a player with questionable character but amazing talent. If he fails, we'll have only spent a third on him.

[hoorta]

dude he's playing against college players. in the NFL one big hit by soemone 300lbs+ and it's all over for johnny football.

 

and believe me there will be a lot of big mandikas standing in line waiting to punish that spoiled brat.

 

^+1

 

Unlike the SEC?

 

 

You just said it Shep- the College game and Pro game are two different animals. Johnny Football relies on his legs (panics if you will) @ the first sign of pressure. Not buying your "he's standing in the pocket more" mantra. He's an elusive runner alright- but in the Pro game you need be unelusive but once, and your season- or career is over. Me and Mik are seeing the same thing- Manziel already has gotten dinged by the college lightweights- when Ngata sits on him, it's a trip to the hospital with multiple broken ribs.

 

Yeah, he looked pretty good against Alabama- how many of those guys on the Tide's roster are going to be playing on Sunday? Their entire front seven? If you haven't noticed, their secondary is a mess this year. Ever think Johnny Football scrambles around because he can't pre-read a college defense? It gets 10X tougher in the pros.

[Shep]

I think he was talking about my response to... ah, shit, never mind. It was about the prominence of the QB position being an NFL thing, not an NCAA thing. Bridgewater is way better than McCarron but 'Bama is still better than Louisville.

 

 

I did not see a point.

 

 

What is the value of:

 

1. A 5'8", big-hitting FS in a league that is legislating big hits in the secondary out of the game?

 

2. A RB that has been dismissed from not one, but two schools for disciplinary reasons? Would concern me even more if he declares as a Jr. rather than sticking for his Sr. year.

 

 

On the plus side Johnson is a good pick, if he comes out. Just be careful filling out that card as he could be one of up to four A.J. Johnsons in the 2014 draft.

[Shep]

Well, on drafting a safety high (2nd round) when we have two starters locked in and playing very well... I don't get it.

 

For what it's worth, CBS has Dyer ranked as a 7th rounder. I personally love Carlos Hyde and I'm NOT an OSU homer. He just has some of that beast mode to him. He and Dion Lewis would be an interesting platoon (with Obie, too).

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Well, on drafting a safety high (2nd round) when we have two starters locked in and playing very well... I don't get it.

 

For what it's worth, CBS has Dyer ranked as a 7th rounder. I personally love Carlos Hyde and I'm NOT an OSU homer. He just has some of that beast mode to him. He and Dion Lewis would be an interesting platoon (with Obie, too).

I just don't believe Gipson is a long term quality starter. He's having a phenomenal season and I would love for him to be our starter for the next ten years, but I still believe this season is a bit of a fluke. I'd rather hedge my bets and take a playmaking physical specimen just in case Gipson ends up not working out. Having that talent on the bench for a year or two isn't a bad thing.

 

Spending a high pick on a second TE doesn't make sense to me. Even if we ran every play out of a variation of the 12 formation (which we won't), a second TE is the fifth option to catch a pass. In the best case, in an even distribution, throwing the ball 25 times per game, he'll be getting 5 receptions. To me, it's not worth that high of a pick.

 

Obviously, I understand there are incalcuable matchup implications. But, in my opinion, I'd rather have a first round talent safety riding the bench and possibly have trade bait in Gipson.

 

I see Pro Bowl potential in Joyner.

[Richiswhere]

 

 

You just said it Shep- the College game and Pro game are two different animals. Johnny Football relies on his legs (panics if you will) @ the first sign of pressure. Not buying your "he's standing in the pocket more" mantra. He's an elusive runner alright- but in the Pro game you need be unelusive but once, and your season- or career is over. Me and Mik are seeing the same thing- Manziel already has gotten dinged by the college lightweights- when Ngata sits on him, it's a trip to the hospital with multiple broken ribs.

 

Yeah, he looked pretty good against Alabama- how many of those guys on the Tide's roster are going to be playing on Sunday? Their entire front seven? If you haven't noticed, their secondary is a mess this year. Ever think Johnny Football scrambles around because he can't pre-read a college defense? It gets 10X tougher in the pros.

Wow Alabama only has the 11 rank passing defense in the FBS. Man I would hate to think how good they might be if the secondary wasn't in such a mess.

Number of teams that have thrown for 250 yards or more against Alabama 1.

Number of teams that have scored more than 17 points against Alabama 1.

Name the player and team that Alabama spent 6+ months preparing for this off season? Johnny Manziel and Texas A&M.

I came into the season not liking Manziel at all but man the more I watch him the more I like the way he plays. This dude isn't QBing for a team that gives up like 15 points a game he has to score points.. Texas A&M has one of the worst defense in the whole FBS.

Everyone says the SEC is the be all end all for football, the toughest conference there is and yet every week Manziel is tearing it up.

[Shep]

Yeah, it's one of those points that shuts down the argument: Manziel plays in the SEC, not the MAC, and he's torched an epic Alabama defense not once but twice. And yes, their defense is epic and most of them will play in the NFL. I forget the stats they were throwing out about drafted players during 'Bama-LSU but it was pretty nuts.

 

So there isn't much question of whether Manziel can succeed against big, fast, NFL types. He's been doing it for two years. It's a non-debate in my opinion.

 

As for this entire season being a fluke for Gipson: He played well last year, too, when given the chance. The main reason Horton never even questioned him as a starter was that full game tape against the Steelers finale. Was that a fluke as well? Have the last two years been flukes, even though Dick Jauron and Ray Horton (couple guys who might know a little something about DBs) have said he has everything you look for in a starting FS? I'm just not following you on this one. Did you just dig in too deep?

 

A second TE is just one idea that could help the offense, and I know the Browns like it because they wanted Vance McDonald pretty badly last year. I know Chud loves him some 12, as do most OCs these days. But I'm not married to it. We might see better value in a WR and sign a f/a TE we like better than Barnidge... easier to upgrade than Gipson by miles.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Yeah, it's one of those points that shuts down the argument: Manziel plays in the SEC, not the MAC, and he's torched an epic Alabama defense not once but twice. And yes, their defense is epic and most of them will play in the NFL. I forget the stats they were throwing out about drafted players during 'Bama-LSU but it was pretty nuts.

 

So there isn't much question of whether Manziel can succeed against big, fast, NFL types. He's been doing it for two years. It's a non-debate in my opinion.

 

As for this entire season being a fluke for Gipson: He played well last year, too, when given the chance. The main reason Horton never even questioned him as a starter was that full game tape against the Steelers finale. Was that a fluke as well? Have the last two years been flukes, even though Dick Jauron and Ray Horton (couple guys who might know a little something about DBs) have said he has everything you look for in a starting FS? I'm just not following you on this one. Did you just dig in too deep?

 

A second TE is just one idea that could help the offense, and I know the Browns like it because they wanted Vance McDonald pretty badly last year. I know Chud loves him some 12, as do most OCs these days. But I'm not married to it. We might see better value in a WR and sign a f/a TE we like better than Barnidge... easier to upgrade than Gipson by miles.

I don't believe Bama's defense is as great as you and others claim.

 

The best offense they've faced all season (outside A&M) is 27th overall Ole Miss. The rest of the offense rankings they've faced are as follows: 34th (LSU), 39th (CSU), 92nd (Va.Tech), 99th (Kentucky), 100th (Arkansas), and 101st (Tennessee). That's not even including Georgia State.

 

The average offense they face, not including Ga. State, ranks 61st.

 

 

Coincidentally, the average rank of the teams OSU has faced is also 61, and they're only giving up 6 more points per game than Bama, while scoring 10 points more per game on offense.

 

Does that mean that OSU has an elite defense as well? Furthermore, seeing that OSU's offense ranks higher in every statistical category, and both teams are undefeated, and both teams have faced and beaten 2 ranked teams thus far, does that make OSU a better team?

 

Also, since OSU's remaining SOS is twice as strong as Bama's, if both teams win out, shouldn't OSU be more deserving of a National Title chance?

 

 

Sorry, I went off on a tangent. I just don't feel like Bama is as strong of a team as they have been in the past, yet they're getting that SEC bias. People are so quick to say that OSU hasn't faced anyone, but, statistically, neither has Bama.

[The Gipper]

I don't believe Bama's defense is as great as you and others claim.

 

The best offense they've faced all season (outside A&M) is 27th overall Ole Miss. The rest of the offense rankings they've faced are as follows: 34th (LSU), 39th (CSU), 92nd (Va.Tech), 99th (Kentucky), 100th (Arkansas), and 101st (Tennessee). That's not even including Georgia State.

 

The average offense they face, not including Ga. State, ranks 61st.

 

 

Coincidentally, the average rank of the teams OSU has faced is also 61, and they're only giving up another score

 

Does that mean that OSU has an elite defense as well? Furthermore, seeing that OSU's offense ranks higher in every statistical category, and both teams are undefeated, and both teams have faced and beaten 2 ranked teams thus far, does that make OSU a better team?

 

Also, since OSU's remaining SOS is twice as strong as Bama's, if both teams win out, shouldn't OSU be more deserving of a National Title chance?

 

 

Sorry, I went off on a tangent. I just don't feel like Bama is as strong of a team as they have been in the past, yet they're getting that SEC bias. People are so quick to say that OSU hasn't faced anyone, but, statistically, neither has Bama.

You are letting facts (your stats about the OSU vs. Ala. offense and defense) get in the way of a good delusion (that Alabama and the SEC are far superior).

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

You are letting facts (your stats about the OSU vs. Ala. offense and defense) get in the way of a good delusion (that Alabama and the SEC are far superior).

From top to bottom, the SEC is hands down the best conference in college football.

 

But Bama is not as dominant as they have been. Their illusion of supremacy this year is aided by playing highly mediocre offenses.

 

Outside of A&M, they play the dregs of the SEC this season. Even LSU is a down year. Yes, Auburn has been a surprise, but there's no Georgia or Carolina on their schedule. Mizzou will be a test for them.

[Tour2ma]

I think he was talking about my response to... ah, shit, never mind. It was about the prominence of the QB position being an NFL thing, not an NCAA thing.

 

Now that is understandable. Only problem is you keep jumping from college QB to QB based apparently on their prominence as represented by the dominance of their stats.

 

I just don't believe Gipson is a long term quality starter. He's having a phenomenal season and I would love for him to be our starter for the next ten years, but I still believe this season is a bit of a fluke.

 

I think our bar for phenomenal is a tad low... unless after nine games 2 INTs and 10 passes defended on the 12th ranked pass D is phenomenal.

 

That said I must note that the pass stat we lead the league in is YPC at a paltry 6.0. So our coverage doesn't suck either.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Now that is understandable. Only problem is you keep jumping from college QB to QB based apparently on their prominence as represented by the dominance of their stats.

 

 

I think our bar for phenomenal is a tad low... unless after nine games 2 INTs and 10 passes defended on the 12th ranked pass D is phenomenal.

 

That said I must note that the pass stat we lead the league in is YPC at a paltry 6.0. So our coverage doesn't suck either.

Phenomenal compared to what I expected of him.

 

For a UDFA from a non Top 25 program to not only be a starter for us, but not be a liability as well...that's phenomenal in my eyes.

 

I think he's reached his ceiling, honestly. He'll never be a Pro Bowl level player, at best he'll be a middle of the road starter who can excel when surrounded by talent.

 

I fully expected him to be benched by this point and Bademosi or someone to fill in until we draft a safety next year.

 

Joyner seems like the perfect fit for Horton's philosophy. A small, ridiculously fast player who hits hard and covers even harder. Guys like that normally play with a chip on their shoulder, and that seems to be the persona of this defense, from Kruger being considered the weakest of the Ravens LB's, to Des Bryant being considered a troubled talent, to Buster Skrine being thought of us as too small to play on Sundays.

 

I'm at least glad we're developing an identity.

[Shep]

We think Gipson has peaked at 23? He's as wily as he's ever gonna be? He's a fantastic athlete so I don't think that's gonna hold him back. He's got a lot of PDs, 2 picks, and scads of tackles. By any measure, he's playing great football. There's almost nothing a replacement could do to win us more games.

 

Like Tour kinda-sorta said, the bottom line is bad things happen when the other team drops back to pass: They either get sacked (2nd in the NFL) or they don't accomplish much (lowest YPA in the entire league). So we draft a DB high up? Uhhhhhh... okay?

 

I'd say offensive playmakers.

[Tour2ma]

Sacks we're T-5 now... with 31, but three of the top six including Seattle, with whom we are tied, have played 10 games to our 9.

 

I'm a troubled by our lack of INTs. With as much pressure as we put on QBs (in addiditon to the sacks we are T-2 in the league in "QB Hits") to stand tied for 26th place with only 6 team INTs makes me scratch my head. Four teams are tied at the top with 13.

 

Of course this is not necessarily a secondary issue. Our LBs have kicked in a grand total of zero. So give me at least one LB....

 

Joyner seems like the perfect fit for Horton's philosophy. A small, ridiculously fast player who hits hard and covers even harder. Guys like that normally play with a chip on their shoulder, and that seems to be the persona of this defense, from Kruger being considered the weakest of the Ravens LB's, to Des Bryant being considered a troubled talent, to Buster Skrine being thought of us as too small to play on Sundays.

 

At 5'8 Joyner'd better play with that chip strapped to his feet...

 

I know I posted the same yesterday, but I still can't see a short FS no matter how hard hitting he is... especially since you aren't allowed to hit "defenseless" receivers hard.

 

It's going to be more and more important that your FS is tall and can jump to bat balls away from the Mega-WRs in the league.

 

And at 5'11 that ain't Gipson either...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

We think Gipson has peaked at 23? He's as wily as he's ever gonna be? He's a fantastic athlete so I don't think that's gonna hold him back. He's got a lot of PDs, 2 picks, and scads of tackles. By any measure, he's playing great football. There's almost nothing a replacement could do to win us more games.

 

Like Tour kinda-sorta said, the bottom line is bad things happen when the other team drops back to pass: They either get sacked (2nd in the NFL) or they don't accomplish much (lowest YPA in the entire league). So we draft a DB high up? Uhhhhhh... okay?

 

I'd say offensive playmakers.

It doesn't have to make sense, I'm going to be stubborn on this. I have to, after all of the garbage I talked about him in the offseason.

 

 

Even if Horton just called him his defensive MVP this season...which he did.

 

We need safety help.

[Shep]

Couch, that is so cool and self-aware, gotta give you massive props. Honestly, if we could all be that self-effacing, life would be 20 times more fun.

 

Here's an article that praises Skrine and Gipson... but inadvertently points out that Gipson isn't covering great. He's getting a rep as a big hitter but he's ranked 33rd among safeties in completion percentage. Jauron loved his coverage abilities, said he could play corner, so that's a bit troublesome and might be part of our problem on third downs.

 

He needs to improve in that area (like Skrine)... or we need a safety who covers better. The hits? We got those. In today's NFL, you need safeties who can step up and cover a slot or hybrid TE.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/11/cleveland_browns_secondary_sho.html

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Couch, that is so cool and self-aware, gotta give you massive props. Honestly, if we could all be that self-effacing, life would be 20 times more fun.

 

Here's an article that praises Skrine and Gipson... but inadvertently points out that Gipson isn't covering great. He's getting a rep as a big hitter but he's ranked 33rd among safeties in completion percentage. Jauron loved his coverage abilities, said he could play corner, so that's a bit troublesome and might be part of our problem on third downs.

 

He needs to improve in that area (like Skrine)... or we need a safety who covers better. The hits? We got those. In today's NFL, you need safeties who can step up and cover a slot or hybrid TE.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/11/cleveland_browns_secondary_sho.html

I've always been infatuated with ball hawk, defensive captain safeties. Ed Reed has been one of my favorite players for the past decade.

 

I understand there are many molds of a quality safety, and that Gipson's mold is just as effective, but it's just not what I have in mind.

 

In my eyes, a successful defense needs three things: a badass ballhawk safety, an intelligent and hard hitting MLB and an effective pass rushing OLB. Those are primary needs. With those pieces in place, you can begin to focus on building a strong secondary and strong defensive line.

 

We have two of the three, and a solid safety who is neither a liability nor a playmaker. We have a solid line, a great CB, a solid #2 CB, a run supporting SS, and a plethora of rushers. We're one playmaker away from having the absolute best defense in the NFL.

 

We're at a point now where we can afford to take BPA almost all draft. We don't have a need so glaring that we will have to reach (QB excluded). If the BPA in the second is a safety, id like to see us go safety. If it's a TE, I would like to go TE.

 

I would rather see us amass quality talent than be right or wrong. Kansas City as the exception, the team with the most talent normally wins in the NFL. I'm tired of being the team with moxie and gumption, I want to be the team with top tier talent at all 53 spots.

[The Gipper]

I've always been infatuated with ball hawk, defensive captain safeties. Ed Reed has been one of my favorite players for the past decade.

 

I understand there are many molds of a quality safety, and that Gipson's mold is just as effective, but it's just not what I have in mind.

 

In my eyes, a successful defense needs three things: a badass ballhawk safety, an intelligent and hard hitting MLB and an effective pass rushing OLB. Those are primary needs. With those pieces in place, you can begin to focus on building a strong secondary and strong defensive line.

 

We have two of the three, and a solid safety who is neither a liability nor a playmaker. We have a solid line, a great CB, a solid #2 CB, a run supporting SS, and a plethora of rushers. We're one playmaker away from having the absolute best defense in the NFL.

 

We're at a point now where we can afford to take BPA almost all draft. We don't have a need so glaring that we will have to reach (QB excluded). If the BPA in the second is a safety, id like to see us go safety. If it's a TE, I would like to go TE.

 

I would rather see us amass quality talent than be right or wrong. Kansas City as the exception, the team with the most talent normally wins in the NFL. I'm tired of being the team with moxie and gumption, I want to be the team with top tier talent at all 53 spots.

Well, 50% of the equation is having the team with the top tier talent.....but the other 50% is superior coaching.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Well, 50% of the equation is having the team with the top tier talent.....but the other 50% is superior coaching.

I'd like to counter that point by presenting to you the Denver Broncos, who won with Jack Del Rio at the helm. The same Del Rio who posted only 3 winning seasons in 9 years in Jacksonville and has a career winning percentage of .489.

 

I would also like to present to you Nick Saban, who may be one of the greatest coaches of all time, and failed miserably in Miami due to having an absolutely garbage team.

 

Great coaching doesn't matter if you have a bad team. I'd be willing to bet that Mangini, Davis, and Crennel could all put together 8 win seasons in Denver.

 

The two go hand in hand, obviously. But having no on field talent is much harder to overcome.

 

You'd have to be a genius to win with a shitty team, and you'd have to be an idiot to lose with a great one.

[The Gipper]

I'd like to counter that point by presenting to you the Denver Broncos, who won with Jack Del Rio at the helm. The same Del Rio who posted only 3 winning seasons in 9 years in Jacksonville and has a career winning percentage of .489.

 

I would also like to present to you Nick Saban, who may be one of the greatest coaches of all time, and failed miserably in Miami due to having an absolutely garbage team.

 

Great coaching doesn't matter if you have a bad team. I'd be willing to bet that Mangini, Davis, and Crennel could all put together 8 win seasons in Denver.

 

The two go hand in hand, obviously. But having no on field talent is much harder to overcome.

 

You'd have to be a genius to win with a shitty team, and you'd have to be an idiot to lose with a great one.

 

Yes, I agree with all of that.....but, you can have a team with somewhat lesser talent beat up on a team with more talent if the coaching is quality.

I mean, was there any doubt in your mind that a Lombardi, Landry, Shula and others could do this? Yes a great coach cannot make really crappy talent win.....but a crappy coach can make good talent lose.

I mean....just take Kansas City. Last year with Romeo they were 2-14. Now, with Andy Reid, they are 9-0....and there has not been all that much changeover in personell. The coach and the QB. (yes, a QB can make a big difference obviously, but often a QB is an extension of a coach)