Official Browns QB Prospect Discussion!

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Wow... you don't like Bridgewater?

 

I honestly don't have any problem with anybody hating on every QB draft (boards are notorious for that)... but I'm offering up the broader notion that most in and around the NFL see this as a very good QB draft if most or all of the eligible guys come out. Most also would bet you a thou or so that the Browns will be very aggressive about getting the guy they want with the first card they send to the podium.

 

I believe it was Higdon who said "sources" say the Browns like both Mariota and Manziel a lot. Part of that is because Bridgewater is one of the higher rated QBs to come out in the past five years and a lock for #1, probably to Jax. MANY mocks think TB will take Clowney because they like Glennon and intend to continue developing him.

 

But it's also because Chud wants a very mobile QB who can give him more options with the offense. I don't see them taking Mettenberger or Carr, frankly. Right now, they pick 11th and you're seeing a lot of Manziel there... but it's tough to find anybody who doesn't expect the Browns to be extremely aggressive trading up... partially because they said that's why they acquired the extra #1. They aren't being coy about it. There really are no mocks that DON'T have the Browns taking a QB.

 

It's not an obsession. It's just reading and watching and taking the most reasonable stance. I like Hoyer. So does Mary Kay. So does Grossi. Neither believes for a second the Browns won't draft a quarterback early in round 1.

 

Couch... you were joking on the math, right? I didn't say, "Find 12 GMs who say this is a great QB draft and then ask them if they think it's a great QB draft." Please say you were kiddin' around. I said poll a dozen GMs. The dozen you have access to, or randomly, and they'll tell you it's an excellent QB draft. They'll also tell you Bridgewater is a legit #1 overall pick at QB and there are probably four or five guys better than anybody in last year's draft.

 

And as Peter King said, if the draft were held today, both EJ Manuel and Geno Smith would make more money. Not because they've been the best ever but because they've looked legit. Manuel probably wouldn't get past the Browns.

I love how you speak on the behalf of those "in the know" on things that you have no way of knowing.

 

More than half of the GM's in the NFL think you're a QB pimp.

 

75% of the FO personnel of AFC West teams believe in the cheese goddesses of the planet Eurageneeria.

 

Six NFL GM's are afraid of the dark.

 

Hm, that does feel good.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

LOL... Hang in there, Shep.

 

I may disagree, but I admire your sticktoittiveness...

 

 

Nice breakdown...

Yes, Defenses deceive. What a QB sees pre-snap may or may not be true.

The snap read either confirms the pre-snap or not... and normally the movement of either the ILB or FS are the key.

Disagree that second read talent is impossible to scout. Where the QB looks (who he looks toward) during his drop can be seen. Then you grade the decision he makes.

Certainly easy to spot an 'F' student like Wheezy or DA.

 

 

Tannehill still has a ways to go to be sure, but still has the greatest upside of his draft. Based upon the progress he's made, I believe he will end up second to only Luck in his draft class.

 

When I said its impossible to scout, I meant that it's impossible to tell what the QB is reading. Sure, he can look at the right players, but we'll never really know what's going on in his head as he looks.

 

College QB's don't have to rely on this read as much, as broken plays are routinely turned into large gains and even TDs in college. At the high school and college level, QB's are taught that holding on to the ball longer and waiting for the receiver to break off his route is better than misreading then defense and firing early.

 

In the pros, it's a whole different game. Holding on to the ball gets you injured. There is no coming back from a busted play or missed opportunity (normally). You have to make the correct read.

[Tour2ma]

When I said its impossible to scout, I meant that it's impossible to tell what the QB is reading. Sure, he can look at the right players, but we'll never really know what's going on in his head as he looks.

 

My point is that you can see if QB is looking for the proper input and then infer the internal process based upon action taken. Repeat a few hundred times and you get an idea of the process... or lack thereof.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

My point is that you can see if QB is looking for the proper input and then infer the internal process based upon action taken. Repeat a few hundred times and you get an idea of the process... or lack thereof.

True.

 

But in many college offenses, systems are run that are completely non reliant on that read.

 

Take Dana Holgorsen's offense, for example. A majority of the passing plays are triangle reads or half field reads that are meant to attack the more prevalent zone defenses.

 

A QB doesn't have to determine what the mike LB or FS is doing because it doesn't matter, that play is only focused on flooding one zone with multiple receivers. Reacting to the defense is immaterial.

 

 

Stuff like that tends to skew the stats.

 

I get what you are saying, though. There is a way to make an educated guess about who is more skilled at the snap read.

[hoorta]

Wow... you don't like Bridgewater?

 

I honestly don't have any problem with anybody hating on every QB draft (boards are notorious for that)... but I'm offering up the broader notion that most in and around the NFL see this as a very good QB draft if most or all of the eligible guys come out. Most also would bet you a thou or so that the Browns will be very aggressive about getting the guy they want with the first card they send to the podium.

 

Yeah most in and around the NFL.... talked to any of them lately? Or you just projecting what you THINK the Browns will do?

 

I believe it was Higdon who said "sources" say the Browns like both Mariota and Manziel a lot. Part of that is because Bridgewater is one of the higher rated QBs to come out in the past five years and a lock for #1, probably to Jax. MANY mocks think TB will take Clowney because they like Glennon and intend to continue developing him.

 

If Mariotta is as good as advertized, then by your thinking the Bucs would be fools to pass on him. It's all about the quarterback right?

 

But it's also because Chud wants a very mobile QB who can give him more options with the offense. I don't see them taking Mettenberger or Carr, frankly. Right now, they pick 11th and you're seeing a lot of Manziel there... but it's tough to find anybody who doesn't expect the Browns to be extremely aggressive trading up... partially because they said that's why they acquired the extra #1. They aren't being coy about it. There really are no mocks that DON'T have the Browns taking a QB.

 

Mocks mean nada Shep. There's a freaking huge difference between taking a qb in round one and aggressively moving up to take one. Really? Chud wants a mobile qb? You heard this from him? Just because he had Newton @ Carolina doesn't mean he wants a mobile qb. He wants a quarterback that can win games- period.

 

It's not an obsession. It's just reading and watching and taking the most reasonable stance. I like Hoyer. So does Mary Kay. So does Grossi. Neither believes for a second the Browns won't draft a quarterback early in round 1.

 

Nope, you're the lone voice in the wilderness shouting the Browns are going to aggressively move up. Like I said- start quoting guys I respect, and I'll start giving you some credence.

 

Couch... you were joking on the math, right? I didn't say, "Find 12 GMs who say this is a great QB draft and then ask them if they think it's a great QB draft." Please say you were kiddin' around. I said poll a dozen GMs. The dozen you have access to, or randomly, and they'll tell you it's an excellent QB draft. They'll also tell you Bridgewater is a legit #1 overall pick at QB and there are probably four or five guys better than anybody in last year's draft.

 

Problem is, you don't have access to those GMs either- why don't you ask them what they think on the record? I can already hear the crickets chirping. There's still 8 games to play this year- calm down for a couple of weeks at least.

 

And as Peter King said, if the draft were held today, both EJ Manuel and Geno Smith would make more money. Not because they've been the best ever but because they've looked legit. Manuel probably wouldn't get past the Browns.

 

Shep, the Browns FO said "we will be aggressive in trying to build a winner". There is absolutly no basis in fact at this point in time they said "we will agressively move up in the draft to take a qb". That's pure speculation on your part.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Shep, you have just as little an idea what anybody of importance actually thinks about this draft as anyone else here. Saying "this is Grossi's" opinion or "this is what the FO thinks" is the reason nobody is taking you seriously. Well, part of it.

 

Chud can say anything he wants until he's blue in the face, it doesn't matter. Same goes for anyone that holds power. Very seldom do the things they say align with the things they think.

[hoorta]

Shep, you have just as little an idea what anybody of importance actually thinks about this draft as anyone else here. Saying "this is Grossi's" opinion or "this is what the FO thinks" is the reason nobody is taking you seriously. Well, part of it.

 

Chud can say anything he wants until he's blue in the face, it doesn't matter. Same goes for anyone that holds power. Very seldom do the things they say align with the things they think.

 

^+1 What we know as fact is the Browns scouted Bridgewater and Manzel. They'd be remiss if they didn't. Every freaking FO in the NFL plays their cards as close to the vest as possible regarding the draft. & the smoke gets thicker the closer you get to D-Day.

[Shep]

Tannehill played a clean game and beat the Bengals. His protection is atrocious... but I agree: Trust your eyes. He has everything, huge upside, as you put it. He has high level arm talent, 4.6 speed, size, and brains. I thought the Browns should've drafted him... and would've with this current regime.

 

 

LOL... Hang in there, Shep.

 

I may disagree, but I admire your sticktoittiveness...

 

 

Nice breakdown...

Yes, Defenses deceive. What a QB sees pre-snap may or may not be true.

The snap read either confirms the pre-snap or not... and normally the movement of either the ILB or FS are the key.

Disagree that second read talent is impossible to scout. Where the QB looks (who he looks toward) during his drop can be seen. Then you grade the decision he makes.

Certainly easy to spot an 'F' student like Wheezy or DA.

 

 

Tannehill still has a ways to go to be sure, but still has the greatest upside of his draft. Based upon the progress he's made, I believe he will end up second to only Luck in his draft class.

[Shep]

I feel pretty confident with how seriously I'm taken in general, including here, so no insult taken. It's like the giant being called short (!). And I also have no problem with you or jousting in general. It's all good. No worries.

 

I do feel like you're misunderstanding some fundamental things here... or more accurately, pretending to. Quoting Browns beat writers or national NFL types or Mayock or anybody else like that on a Browns board is... well... sort of the opposite of something one would do that would damage his credibility. See what I'm saying? It's a Browns board... and I'm citing people who cover/analyze the Browns or the NFL for a living?

 

Now, if I said, "My Mom says," your post would make sense. It doesn't... but I think you kinda know it. You seem like a smart guy who just likes to joust. And again, boards benefit from that as long as it doesn't get to mean. You're getting a little obsessive about me and seem a little determined to insult me, but I feel like you're gonna get over it.

 

 

Shep, you have just as little an idea what anybody of importance actually thinks about this draft as anyone else here. Saying "this is Grossi's" opinion or "this is what the FO thinks" is the reason nobody is taking you seriously. Well, part of it.

Chud can say anything he wants until he's blue in the face, it doesn't matter. Same goes for anyone that holds power. Very seldom do the things they say align with the things they think.

[Shep]

I think you're about right, H. Sometimes Higdon or Sobleski or Grossi will say a source tells them the Browns like Mariota and Manziel. Does that make it scripture? No. Is it interesting on a Browns board? Well, duh. Of course it is.

 

Manziel is rising because his arm looks stronger and he's making NFL throws from the pocket after working with that guru dude all offseason. He's getting back in some top 10s.

 

 

^+1 What we know as fact is the Browns scouted Bridgewater and Manzel. They'd be remiss if they didn't. Every freaking FO in the NFL plays their cards as close to the vest as possible regarding the draft. & the smoke gets thicker the closer you get to D-Day.

[Shep]

I'm not sure we really disagree, at least in the sense that the future is never absolutely certain. But everybody from CBS to every single Browns beat writer (conventional and online) to Walter and on down the line is 100% convinced the Browns will not only take a quarterback with their first pick, but aggressively move up to get the guy they want. I agree with that. I think quarterback is the Browns first priority and the fall off to Priority #2 is massive.

 

Again, honestly, I have no problem if somebody here either believes that won't be the case or wishes it wasn't. But when the Browns say that extra #1 allows them flexibility to be aggressive in the draft... you don't think they'll trade up for a RT, right? Everybody pretty damn well knows what they're talking about.

 

 

Shep, the Browns FO said "we will be aggressive in trying to build a winner". There is absolutly no basis in fact at this point in time they said "we will agressively move up in the draft to take a qb". That's pure speculation on your part.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I feel pretty confident with how seriously I'm taken in general, including here, so no insult taken. It's like the giant being called short (!). And I also have no problem with you or jousting in general. It's all good. No worries.

 

I do feel like you're misunderstanding some fundamental things here... or more accurately, pretending to. Quoting Browns beat writers or national NFL types or Mayock or anybody else like that on a Browns board is... well... sort of the opposite of something one would do that would damage his credibility. See what I'm saying? It's a Browns board... and I'm citing people who cover/analyze the Browns or the NFL for a living?

 

Now, if I said, "My Mom says," your post would make sense. It doesn't... but I think you kinda know it. You seem like a smart guy who just likes to joust. And again, boards benefit from that as long as it doesn't get to mean. You're getting a little obsessive about me and seem a little determined to insult me, but I feel like you're gonna get over it.

 

 

The fact is, you haven't quoted anyone. Not really. You've, at best, ad libbed what you've read. You provide zero sources and expect people to trust that it's official.

 

Maybe it's just me having a journalist background, but where I'm from when you "quote" someone, you provide sources.

 

Show me where you've gathered that a dozen NFL GM's...whatever it was. Show me where Grossi and MKC say it's an absolute certainty that we're going to trade up and take a QB in the top 5. Show me where ESPN, or CBS, or Walter football say we are absolutely going to be aggressive and move up. Show me (and everyone else) these things.

 

That's all anyone is asking.

 

 

Since this is all common knowledge, it shouldn't be too hard to find source material.

 

Don't flatter yourself, this isn't a personal vendetta. You just tend to skim over the multitude of my posts that aren't about you, I'm sure. This is more about people tiring of hearing you pimp Mariota, or Bridgewater, or whoever the current flavor of the week is and pass it off as a certainty that they're going to be NFL superstars. How often has that worked out for you in the past?

 

 

Fact of the matter is, Mariota has never had to play under pressure. He rarely sees the field in the fourth quarter. He is quick to take off on the rare occurrences he's actually under pressure. He is very rarely under center.

 

His game in NCAA will not be his game in the NFL. Don't like it? It's the truth. He's not going to run 90% of plays out of shotgun. He's not going to get many designated runs. He's not going to be able to outrun everyone at the NFL level.

 

His physical attributes are nice. So were Jamarcus Russell's. His numbers are even better. So were Tim Tebow's. His team's offensive production is amazing. So was Graham Harrell's.

[Shep]

Oh, you're being silly, Couch. When I quote someone (Higdon, Alo, Sobo, MK, Grossi, Pluto, Shefter, Mayock, whoever), it's probably a tweet and often a link to an article. I read from my iPad in the morning and 99% of my Twitter sources are about football... mostly Browns. If it's a quote and I remember who it is, I say. If not, I don't.

 

If you're implying chicanery or lies or something... dude, please. That's where the goofy kicks in. And of course when you say someone (other than yourself) shouldn't be taken "seriously," it's clearly axe grinding. When you say "everybody thinks" or other childish nonsense, it just reinforces it.

 

Point being, you're not talking to children. You can't fly that stuff by. We're not really debating whether you're board stalking me, just disagreeing on why. When you get off topic and say "everybody hates your hair" or whatever, you have to own it. That's who you are on the board. You're That Guy.

 

So we'll stop: Which QB would you like for the Browns in this draft? Manziel is growing on me.

[bringbackbrownie2]

I'm not sure we really disagree, at least in the sense that the future is never absolutely certain. But everybody from CBS to every single Browns beat writer (conventional and online) to Walter and on down the line is 100% convinced the Browns will not only take a quarterback with their first pick, but aggressively move up to get the guy they want. I agree with that. I think quarterback is the Browns first priority and the fall off to Priority #2 is massive.

 

Again, honestly, I have no problem if somebody here either believes that won't be the case or wishes it wasn't. But when the Browns say that extra #1 allows them flexibility to be aggressive in the draft... you don't think they'll trade up for a RT, right? Everybody pretty damn well knows what they're talking about.

 

 

No one disagrees that the QB position is by far the most important for sustainable success. The problem is you seem to think that picking a QB in the top 5 is guaranteed to bring long term success. It's damn near impossible to determine who will exceed at the next level. TCPO was spot on stating that it is damn near impossible to tell what is going on inside a QBs head and how he will react in an NFL type situation. Giving up an entire draft to move up and select a bust QB sets a franchise back years. There is nothing wrong with using one of our 1st rounders on a QB and using the rest of the picks to build a supporting cast. I'm not giving up on Hoyer yet either and would love to see a rookie learn under Hoyer to begin the season..

[Shep]

Cap is predicted to be 30-ish. Right now, today, in season, we're fattest with something like 18 mill under.

 

I can't remember what else you typed except "diarrhea," and so, well... okay!

 

In both CBS mocks, we draft too low to get Manziel, who goes 5 and 8:

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/mock-draft

 

(And seriously... what was your problem with Twitter? I don't understand. Something's less credible if that's where it's typed? Usually it's a link.)

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I guess I'm just imagining things.

 

I would rather us take the best QB available between Mariota, Bridgewater, Boyd, and McCarron at whatever spot we pick at. Trading up would set this franchise back, as we are in position to add serious talent and solid starting players with our first six picks.

 

If nobody is available between Mariota, Bridgewater, Boyd and McCarron, I would like to see us take Bortles, Fales, or Carr in rounds 2 or 3.

 

If I had to mock us today, I would like to see us go Evans with the #8 pick, then A.J. Johnson at #20.

 

In round 2 I would like to see us take Michael Dyer.

 

Round 3- Bortles, BPA RG.

[hoorta]

Cap is predicted to be 30-ish. Right now, today, in season, we're fattest with something like 18 mill under.

 

I can't remember what else you typed except "diarrhea," and so, well... okay!

 

In both CBS mocks, we draft too low to get Manziel, who goes 5 and 8:

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/mock-draft

 

(And seriously... what was your problem with Twitter? I don't understand. Something's less credible if that's where it's typed? Usually it's a link.)

 

Shep that is a (the) problem- I don't care what Carrucci or Grossi Tweets- that's 1\2 inside information, not the real thing. you don't see Banner or Chud Tweeting on what's up their sleeve, do you? LOL- Banner tells ESPN "we're shopping Gordon" and it takes on a life of it's own, even though it's 100% BS.

[Clevfan4life]

nobody thinks Miller could develop into a freak in the NFL if he got to sit for a couple years and study the pro game?

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

I think Winston is the next big thing. Just another year...

[dab7291993]

nobody thinks Miller could develop into a freak in the NFL if he got to sit for a couple years and study the pro game?

He needs to study actual QB play, not just the NFL game.

 

His throwing motion is god awful, he's not really much of a QB prospect as he is an athletic prospect.

 

We definitely need to keep our picks, and go BPA where ever we pick. If QB falls there, then it does. We have to pick one in rds 1-3, and we can't go with a project.

[koalabazooka]

Whoever drafts Fresno Bulldog Derek Carr will have the steal of the draft. Some savvy team will draft him in the early-mid second.

[Westside Steve]

Depending upon how astute our scouting department is I wouldn't be averse to picking up a good prospect in the second round. I just dread the thought of selling the farm for a crap shoot.

WSS

[Tour2ma]

Banner is not going to spend huge he's Jewish...

 

Seriously? I hope not...

 

nobody thinks Miller could develop into a freak in the NFL if he got to sit for a couple years and study the pro game?

 

Could he? Sure.. but he's a 6'2 218 lb. running QB with injury issues.

 

As for his "horrible mechanics", his release is not the fastest, but other than that I do not see major issues.

=========================================================

 

Meanwhile back at the thread...

 

What is with Jameis not wearing contacts in the game? Had to laugh at all those "Squinting at the sideline" shots in the first half. That said in a couple tight shots during his drops he showed the most active pair of eyes I have seen this year.

 

First game look at him I've had this season and my overall impression is that he is a very promising Freshman. Much bigger, stronger than I was expecting, but a freshman. Bit too eager to run at present, but he's a Freshman. Bit overwhelmed by the size of last nite's game (at least for a half), but he's a Freshman.

 

Another year or two of seasoning and who knows...

I look forward to seeing him some more.

==========================================

 

In other prospect news:

• Boyd is falling like a stone. The one-time, top-of-the-list-with-Bridgewater QB is now at best a 2nd rounder (and possibly a 3rd according to Todd McShay).
• Derek Carr is the rising star (makings of a limerick there) with a chance of being a late 1st rounder.

Stay tuned...

[thenew23]

Another week of college football, another quick breakdown (from what I've seen). Most of the draft-able QB's had a good weekend:

 

Derek Carr - still possibly my favorite QB in this entire draft. He makes throws that you love to see at the NFL level. Has great touch on the fade route, great vision, cannon arm - but can back it down when needed. Seems smart, and has enough mobility to get around in the pocket and can evade pressure. He really has it all. His biggest weakness is probably the fact that his brother was a bust in the NFL. I had to watch every snap of this game b/c I really like watching this guy sling the ball around. Right now... 1st round pick

 

Brett Hundley - I haven't got a sense as to whether this guy is going to enter the draft or wait until next year. Either way, I watched a little of Hundley (finally) and he was impressive. It seemed he had his best game of the season, doing everything right including throwing and running. Any time you lose the TOP 36-24, and still put up 45 points that's impressive. 19 of 24 for 273 yds and 2 TDs is SOLID but also the 11 carries for 72 yds and 2 TDs were impressive. Again, all I can say is he did everything right, no flash, just everything right. Right now... middle-late 1st rounder...

 

Johnny Manziel - boring game. He ran all over, and threw to wide open receivers. Scored 6 TDs, but did not really have an opportunity all game to do anything special. Right now... still a late 1st rounder...

 

Tajh Boyd - had a good bounce-back game, but still doesn't impress me. He seems too small, too slow when making his decision throwing, and does not evade pressure well. He has a cannon arm, and is athletic but when has that ever been enough to win in the NFL?... I just don't see anything special with him. Right now... 3rd rounder

 

Bridgewater and Mariota stand pat. Still think there are too many ?? about both of these guys. I'll be happy when they're drafted before we pick...

 

Carr was the darling of the weekend, but nobody dropped significantly. Still looking to watch more of Mettenberger and McCarron, as well as Bryce Petty (for '14 of course). Lastly, Winston did nothing last night to outshine any of the other QBs. FSU running game was impressive and many of Winston's good throws came off play action.

 

Ohh well, more to come...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

So, get a little pressure on Mariota and he collapses like a flan in a cupboard.

 

Top 5 material, in my book.

[Tour2ma]

Yup... second disappointing viewing of Mariota... even with some flourish at the end.

 

The more I look the more I keep coming back to McCarron.

[koalabazooka]

Still have faith in Mariota. The game-changing lost fumble on 4th down wasn't his fault. He still made a lot of clutch plays down the stretch against a veteran D. The team just had an off game.

[JMR-JUST-A-GAME]

If anything the Browns need to draft a Quarterback that can get out the pocket. Look back at our most recent Quarterbacks none of them could run when they had to if we were to draft Manziel that would be perfect he can make plays with his arm and with his feet

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

If anything the Browns need to draft a Quarterback that can get out the pocket. Look back at our most recent Quarterbacks none of them could run when they had to if we were to draft Manziel that would be perfect he can make plays with his arm and with his feet

Until he takes one hit and explodes into a pile of dollar bills.

[MajorBriggs]

Yup... second disappointing viewing of Mariota... even with some flourish at the end.

 

 

Yeah, no way in hell do I want Mariota.

I kinda just not like Oregon in general, anyway.