Official Browns QB Prospect Discussion!

[The Gipper]

Didn't Tim Tebow win the Heisman? Last I checked the Heisman ultimately means jack shit. It's not even the award for the 'best' player.

The Heisman is the most important trophy awarded in American sports. So I am not sure where you are coming of that it means jack shit.

It may not mean that the guy that wins it is the best professional football prospect. But that is not what it is supposed to mean.

[next2nothing]

The Heisman is the award for the MVP of the NCAA of the given year.

 

It is an important award but it really needs to stop being used as this great positive about incoming NFL prospects. They should get recognized that they won the award (though some say it is based more on popularity now) but it should really not factor in on a prospect's chances of how well he will do in the NFL.

[The Gipper]

The Heisman is the award for the MVP of the NCAA of the given year.

 

That may be a good way to describe it "MVP" of the NCAA. In theory, and in definition it is supposed to be "best player", but it seldom is. But MVP makes more sense.

 

It is an important award but it really needs to stop being used as this great positive about incoming NFL prospects. They should get recognized that they won the award (though some say it is based more on popularity now) but it should really not factor in on a prospect's chances of how well he will do in the NFL.

 

In fact, it is almost antithetical to that now given these winners in which it can be demonstrated that far more Heisman winners are NOT NFL caliber players:

Ingram

Tebow

Troy Smith

Leinert

Jason White

Crouch

Wuerffel

Salaam

Charlie Ward

Torretta

Detmer

Ware

 

In the last 20 years only these winners can be said to have had decent NfL careers:

Eddie George

Charles Woodson

Ricky Williams

Carson Palmer

Sam Bradford

Cam Newton

RGIII...maybe

 

[The Gipper]

That was NOT the case in the dozen or so years before Andre Ware. You had about an 80% quality player rate among Heisman winners:

Tony Dorsett#

Earl Campbell#

Billy Sims

Charles White

George Rogers

Marcus Allen#

Mike Rozier

Doug Flutie

Bo Jackson

Vinny Testaverde

Tim Brown

Barry Sanders#

 

Only White was somewhat of a bust. Imagine what Herschel would have done if he didn't go to the USFL..or actually, in evaluating him....we should consider his USFL accomplishments. And Bo with baseball? Potential HOF without that and the injury.

And the fact is, it was pure NFL hubris that disallowed Flutie to come to the NFL initially....and hell, he is in the CFL HOF.

Rogers and Sims were good quality NFL RBs, if not HOF caliber

[The Cysko Kid]

The Heisman is the award for the MVP of the NCAA of the given year.

 

It is an important award but it really needs to stop being used as this great positive about incoming NFL prospects. They should get recognized that they won the award (though some say it is based more on popularity now) but it should really not factor in on a prospect's chances of how well he will do in the NFL.

My understanding is that the Heisman is given to "most outstanding" player and that character is an important factor in the award. The award for actual best player in the NCAA is the Maxwell trophy or something.

[Westside Steve]

On the radio today I heard some Scout, analyst or something (of whom I forget his name) saying that he believes strongly that the front office is going to be very aggressive in obtaining one of the top QBs.

I think he said he has worked for the Eagles and the Ravens and perhaps a short time for the Browns.

His take was that Mariota is the most complete package but Bridgewater was right there.

He also confirmed with the ESPN analyst who said, like I've been saying for a while, just because the draft is deep doesn't mean it's a great draft.

 

I would really hate to see a couple first round picks and something else for Mariota or Bridgewater.

Thereby neglecting our needs that I believe would put us over the top sooner.

Especially if Hoyer and Campbell play like they have played for the short time they've been on the field.

 

If Hoorta is correct I suppose I could live with AJ McCarron sitting on the bench behind those guys for a while...

 

WSS

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I like MIller... and not just because he's a Buckeye. But Braxton is already damaged goods. What's his concussion count now? Three? Missing games kinda keeps you off of the Heisman list.

 

To my eye when he has been on the field, Miller's been an upgrade over Pryor, who I just never "got". Guiton as well for that matter, although Guiton is much in the mold of Pryor.

 

That said, Pryor protects himself much better on the run than Miller. To say I have been amazed at his success with the Raiders is an understatement.

I've never felt as comfortable with Miller as I did with Pryor. The game came easier to Pryor than it seems to with Miller.

 

They are fundamentally different QB's: Pryor is an athlete put at the QB position, Miller is a thrower put at QB. Neither are true QB's, in my opinion. They just have different qualities that they rely on to make then successful.

[Tour2ma]

In the last 20 years only these winners can be said to have had decent NfL careers:

Eddie George Charles Woodson Ricky Williams

Carson Palmer Sam Bradford Cam Newton RGIII...maybe

 

Kind of a toss up between a RB and a DB for best NFL career... Hmmmmm....

 

That was NOT the case in the dozen or so years before Andre Ware. You had about an 80% quality player rate among Heisman winners:

RB: Tony Dorsett# Earl Campbell# Billy Sims Charles White George Rogers Marcus Allen# Mike Rozier Bo Jackson Barry Sanders#

WR: Tim Brown

QB: Doug Flutie Vinny Testaverde

 

Only White was somewhat of a bust.

 

White had his off-field demons as we know all too well, Gip. He did show some flashes.

 

But more to the point...

As your lists have pointed out Gip, the chances of a Heisman winner continuing his success at the NFL level has nosedived since it has become a QB competition.

 

And that is what it is now... a QB competition.

 

I've never felt as comfortable with Miller as I did with Pryor. The game came easier to Pryor than it seems to with Miller.

 

They are fundamentally different QB's: Pryor is an athlete put at the QB position, Miller is a thrower put at QB. Neither are true QB's, in my opinion. They just have different qualities that they rely on to make then successful.

 

Agree, they are very different...

 

One of the reasons I was always cool towards Pryor was that I thought he was one of those gifted athletes who never had to work at their "craft"... the Poster boy for this feeling being JaMarkus Russell.

 

In Miller's case I have gotten the feeling that he works pretty hard... but it's just a feeling.

[Canton Mike]

 

Kind of a toss up between a RB and a DB for best NFL career... Hmmmmm....

 

 

White had his off-field demons as we know all too well, Gip. He did show some flashes.

 

But more to the point...

As your lists have pointed out Gip, the chances of a Heisman winner continuing his success at the NFL level has nosedived since it has become a QB competition.

 

And that is what it is now... a QB competition.

 

 

Agree, they are very different...

 

One of the reasons I was always cool towards Pryor was that I thought he was one of those gifted athletes who never had to work at their "craft"... the Poster boy for this feeling being JaMarkus Russell.

 

In Miller's case I have gotten the feeling that he works pretty hard... but it's just a feeling.

 

I never was a Pryor fan...he wasted more talent than Miller ever had & I can't stand lazy players. Pryor was a classic under achiever at OSU.

 

Mike

[Shep]

On the radio today I heard some Scout, analyst or something (of whom I forget his name) saying that he believes strongly that the front office is going to be very aggressive in obtaining one of the top QBs.

I think he said he has worked for the Eagles and the Ravens and perhaps a short time for the Browns.

His take was that Mariota is the most complete package but Bridgewater was right there.

He also confirmed with the ESPN analyst who said, like I've been saying for a while, just because the draft is deep doesn't mean it's a great draft.

 

I would really hate to see a couple first round picks and something else for Mariota or Bridgewater.

Thereby neglecting our needs that I believe would put us over the top sooner.

Especially if Hoyer and Campbell play like they have played for the short time they've been on the field.

 

If Hoorta is correct I suppose I could live with AJ McCarron sitting on the bench behind those guys for a while...

 

WSS

 

Here's the thing, Steve: You have your cake and eat it, too, because we have 10 picks and 30 mill. That's why we traded for that other first round pick in the first place.

 

Say we sign four significant free agents. We pretty much have to. It's year three of the CBA and we have to meet some four year average, something like that. So let's say we sign another TE to go with Cameron, a serious WR, a corner with size, and a right-side blocker (not that the line is playing bad).

 

We go into the draft with two obvious needs (quarterback and, much later, RB) and a chance to create competition at safety and ILB. That's basically it. We have TEN FREAKING PICKS!!!

 

So if you use both firsts and a third to get Mariota... assuming you love the hell out of him and think he's special (everybody does)... then you still have picks in rounds 2 and 3, two in 4, and one in every other round. You can take your RB in 2 or 3 to go with Obie and Dion Lewis. You can take a safety in the other of those two rounds. You can get ILB depth in round 4 (remember, Danny Trevathan was a 6th rounder, they aren't premium). Hell, you can even add another WR in round 5!

 

See my point? We have more assets than needs... and most of those "needs" aren't first round material. With our youth at receiver and TE, I'd prefer a couple young-ish vets to go with Gordon and Cameron.

 

This team would be headed for the playoffs with even a "good" quarterback like Hoyer. A serious talent like Mariota? The rest is easy-peasy.

[Shep]

By the way, a lot of people are starting to believe Derek Carr will be the third QB off the board and go in the top 10. Big arm, mobile, playmaking ability, creative on his release point like Stafford. Some big long-time scout said mark it down, after the Senior Bowl and workouts, Carr is a lock top 10 pick.

 

Interesting. That might make him a Brown. Sure as hell sick numbers and plenty of starts. Also 6'3" and 215 and normal draft age (!). Much quicker and more mobile than Weeden.

 

http://espn.go.com/college-football/player/_/id/484080/

[Osiris]

Here's the thing, Steve: You have your cake and eat it, too, because we have 10 picks and 30 mill. That's why we traded for that other first round pick in the first place.

 

Say we sign four significant free agents. We pretty much have to. It's year three of the CBA and we have to meet some four year average, something like that. So let's say we sign another TE to go with Cameron, a serious WR, a corner with size, and a right-side blocker (not that the line is playing bad).

 

We go into the draft with two obvious needs (quarterback and, much later, RB) and a chance to create competition at safety and ILB. That's basically it. We have TEN FREAKING PICKS!!!

 

So if you use both firsts and a third to get Mariota... assuming you love the hell out of him and think he's special (everybody does)... then you still have picks in rounds 2 and 3, two in 4, and one in every other round. You can take your RB in 2 or 3 to go with Obie and Dion Lewis. You can take a safety in the other of those two rounds. You can get ILB depth in round 4 (remember, Danny Trevathan was a 6th rounder, they aren't premium). Hell, you can even add another WR in round 5!

 

See my point? We have more assets than needs... and most of those "needs" aren't first round material. With our youth at receiver and TE, I'd prefer a couple young-ish vets to go with Gordon and Cameron.

 

This team would be headed for the playoffs with even a "good" quarterback like Hoyer. A serious talent like Mariota? The rest is easy-peasy.

 

Im of the same mind as shep on this. If they have to give up picks to move up for qb, well, there is some good talent in free agency for 2014, particularly at WR, CB, and RB.

[hoorta]

 

Here's the thing, Steve: You have your cake and eat it, too, because we have 10 picks and 30 mill. That's why we traded for that other first round pick in the first place.

 

Say we sign four significant free agents. We pretty much have to. It's year three of the CBA and we have to meet some four year average, something like that. So let's say we sign another TE to go with Cameron, a serious WR, a corner with size, and a right-side blocker (not that the line is playing bad).

 

We go into the draft with two obvious needs (quarterback and, much later, RB) and a chance to create competition at safety and ILB. That's basically it. We have TEN FREAKING PICKS!!!

 

So if you use both firsts and a third to get Mariota... assuming you love the hell out of him and think he's special (everybody does)... then you still have picks in rounds 2 and 3, two in 4, and one in every other round. You can take your RB in 2 or 3 to go with Obie and Dion Lewis. You can take a safety in the other of those two rounds. You can get ILB depth in round 4 (remember, Danny Trevathan was a 6th rounder, they aren't premium). Hell, you can even add another WR in round 5!

 

See my point? We have more assets than needs... and most of those "needs" aren't first round material. With our youth at receiver and TE, I'd prefer a couple young-ish vets to go with Gordon and Cameron.

 

This team would be headed for the playoffs with even a "good" quarterback like Hoyer. A serious talent like Mariota? The rest is easy-peasy.

 

OK, that's my absolute limit to move up- two firsts and a third. Not three firsts and a second. How the Redskins doing this year with RG III? all the draft pundits were giving the Redskins major props for shooting their wad on Griffin- I seriously doubt with 20\20 hindsight they'd be doing the same. Schaub & Matty Ice aren't sniffing the playoffs this year either.

[Westside Steve]

Well sure, Shep, I understand what you're saying. And yes that makes sense only, and let me repeat only, if Mariota is that guy.. If we are looking at Andrew Luck or John Elway or even the accident prone RG 3. Unfortunately nobody is saying that, not the coaching staff not the prognosticators not the scouts. This guy is seen as a pretty darn good prospect, but not great. Another variable your scenario hinges on is these free agents with such a lot of gas and great attitude in their tanks that would jump ship to come to Cleveland for an above average salary. Yep we could probably get some if we pay twice what their worth. They don't have the long term upside that a rookie has and put un warranted strain on the salary cap.. Oftentimes I see free agents coming in to get paid for the years they think they've been cheated out of. A lot of times these guys don't show the fire and ability that got them to that point. They call that the Peter Principle. Kind of. I would rather build a team strong enough to win a Superbowl with Hoyer or Campbell or even McCarran at the helm. I think that makes you a better team and it gives you a better chance to win for a longer time especially in this league where quarterbacks are expected to spend at least a part of every season in the hospital.

WSS

[thenew23]

By the way, a lot of people are starting to believe Derek Carr will be the third QB off the board and go in the top 10. Big arm, mobile, playmaking ability, creative on his release point like Stafford. Some big long-time scout said mark it down, after the Senior Bowl and workouts, Carr is a lock top 10 pick.

 

Interesting. That might make him a Brown. Sure as hell sick numbers and plenty of starts. Also 6'3" and 215 and normal draft age (!). Much quicker and more mobile than Weeden.

 

http://espn.go.com/college-football/player/_/id/484080/

I've been saying this for weeks... I like Carr... possibly more than any other QB in the draft. If this was 5 years ago, he would be a lock right now for the #1 overall, but now guys become awed by the "uber-athletic QB." Give me the pocket-passer who can move when necessary all day...

[thenew23]

I would rather build a team strong enough to win a Superbowl with Hoyer or Campbell

 

There's a problem with the whole "let's roll with Hoyer or Campbell" argument... We've heard it before. Remember rolling with Holcolm, Frye, Anderson, Quinn, McCoy, Weeden... because they showed some promise...

 

We haven't drafted a QB in the top 16 picks since '99 when we took Couch. QB play has been the reason we have or haven't been a competitive team. It's simple, we MUST do whatever it takes to get a franchise guy. I don't care who it is... we need a great one...

[Westside Steve]

http://touch.orlandosentinel.com/#story/os-top-10-qbs-2014-nfl-draft-20131022/

 

I don't know if anybody has posted this or not but as to your comment new 23 sure, I remember all those guys and plenty more. I don't think those guys had nearly as much to do with the teams never ending failure as the constant changing of the guard. How many coaches how many offensive schemes how many coordinators and how long does anyone have to get any kind of traction here on Eries shining shores?

 

Because the fans have tunnel vision there is a tendency to think the team has been losing for well over a decade because of the quarterback.

Trent Filter led his team to a Superbowl win. Is dad because he's a perfect physical specimen or an outstanding college prospect or a superhuman athlete? Probably not. Most likely the Ravens were good enough to win with an average quarterback.

There really aren't too many game changing quarterbacks anywhere. This is not the end be a work one player makes a huge difference. I think if Ben Roethlisberger had gone to a team in disarray he'd have had no more success than Brady Quinn. (or any other quarterback you want to name you never seemed to reach his full potential.)

WSS

[ballpeen]

I think it is going to be very expensive to move up.

 

First, we had a team drop 3 1st rounders to move up for a QB last year. Like it or not, that might be a new benchmark.

 

Second, with the new rookie cap in place, I don't think the old draft value chart is accurate any longer. The money being paid to top picks had to factor in to how much a team would pay to move up.

 

Third, there is going to be significant interest in moving up for Clowney, which even though he is a different player is going to put added stress on the price paid to move up. The more teams you have seeking a better draft slot, the more expensive it becomes.

[Shep]

Some good points, but...

 

1. Trent Dilfer was literally 14 years ago. We're in leap time and it's a different era. Since then, the Super Bowl has been about Brady, Manning, Manning, Favre, Warner, Roethlisberger, Brees, and Rodgers... a lot of future HOFers. And we went five years where the 10 teams had an average rank of 23rd in rushing, including 3 ranked dead LAST.

 

2. There is not a Super Bowl team with Jason Campbell at QB. Or Ryan Fitzpatrick. Brian Hoyer? We may never know if he could be some hybrid of Brees and Brady because he turns 29 next year coming off major knee surgery. If he'd started for us at 25 and shown those three good games, I'd feel differently.

 

The best teams have the best quarterbacks. If not all season (those are usually the 12 in the playoffs) then at least uber hot in the playoffs, like Flacco or Eli. Been that way for a very long time now.

 

3. I really believe you're behind the curve on Mariota. Matt Miller (NFLN and BR) says Bridgewater is his 2nd rated QB of the past five years and Mariota is 3rd (both behind only Luck). And if either has a bullet, it's Mariota. He's a freak athlete but becoming a truly elite passer. As someone on the national level said, you can get blown away by the measurables (legit 4.4, faster than RG3, as fast as Vick ever was), or the stats (500 yards rushing, 65% completion, sick 20/0 ratio)... but more than anything, just watch him play. He has elite arm talent and accuracy. He's smart. He makes great decisions.

 

Have we seen a guy that tall, that fast/quick, with that much arm talent come into the league lately? No. Which is why he's giving a legit #1 overall like Bridgewater (and he's damn near perfect) such a run. Those two would be in the running for #1 overall in just about any draft of the past decade.

 

4. Having a franchise quarterback is the keys to the kingdom. Without one, you can do a lot of other things right (like have the best back and best pass rusher, like the Vikings, or 6 Pro Bowlers like the Chiefs) but it doesn't really matter very much. The best teams have the best quarterbacks. The top of the Passer Ratings and the playoff lineup are roughly the same with an outlier here and there. This administration gets it: The Browns need an elite QB, one that wins game for them. Not one that just avoids stepping on his own cock.

 

By the way, Alex Smith is going to have to play better or the Chiefs will lose to better teams than Cleveland... and Cleveland could've won that game. Bess catches the punt on the run, the Browns tie it with 3:30 left and have a very good chance of winning it in overtime. Smith isn't even playing like Smith, one of the most accurate game managers in football the past two years.

 

5. The Browns have a lot of talent. The line has played great whenever Weeden's out and we still get Pinkston back. Gordon's amazing and so is Cameron. I like Obie and I loved Dion in the preseason so we just need another back for that rotation. Mingo, Sheard, Kruger, DQJ, Robertson, Skrine, Haden, Ward, Gipson... that's a damn good defense. Add a corner with size and we're set there.

 

Receiver? I'd like a high end one, preferably in free agency, but he'll be a second to Gordon so don't get carried away. And neither Little nor Bess are going anywhere. Love another TE to run 12 formations with Cameron.

[calfoxwc]

Does anybody think the Browns would be a better football team with Akili Smith at the helm?

 

The Saints do pretty well, Brees isn't a Petyon Manning.

 

All the Browns really need, is a Brian Sipe or a Kosar. Bill Nelson.

 

But, if Mariotta fell to them, yeah, that would be great.

 

The Browns still need to draft with those two first rounders, to be a better team.

[Westside Steve]

Shep a winning team makes a franchise quarterback. Had Tim Couch been drafted by the Steelers I believe hed be considered a hell of a quarterback.

I think if we'd taken big gay Ben then he be on the turd pile today.

 

A successful team especially a Superbowl team makes every player seem special.

 

Every coach too. Just by association.

WSS

[gftChris]

Shep a winning team makes a franchise quarterback. Had Tim Couch been drafted by the Steelers I believe hed be considered a hell of a quarterback.

I think if we'd taken big gay Ben then he be on the turd pile today.

 

A successful team especially a Superbowl team makes every player seem special.

 

Every coach too. Just by association.

WSS

On the other hand, an elite franchise QB can make the team better than it is. For example, if both teams had Aaron Rodgers or Brandon Weeden, we would have beaten GB quite handily I think. As it is, Rodgers made his receivers look amazing, and weeden made ours look awful. See also, Tom Brady with Kenbrell tompkins - you think that guy would even make it on the browns roster? And yet he has 4 TDs on the year.

[Flyin J]

Does anybody think the Browns would be a better football team with Akili Smith at the helm?

 

The Saints do pretty well, Brees isn't a Petyon Manning.

 

All the Browns really need, is a Brian Sipe or a Kosar. Bill Nelson.

 

But, if Mariotta fell to them, yeah, that would be great.

 

The Browns still need to draft with those two first rounders, to be a better team.

Brees is the closest equal you'll find to Peyton.

[Westside Steve]

Of course I'm not talking about an incompetent quarterback I'm talking about a decent quarterback.

I'm disappointed did Brandon Weeden never panned out.

I never like to see someone with promise hit the skids but I admit that he apparently didn't have what it takes to be even average at the position. Jason Campbell and Brian Hoyer both seem to have the ability to be at least somewhat above average in the right situation.

E

I think to counter your position do you think that Ben Roethlisberger would take the Jaguars to the Superbowl this year?

Or maybe I should have said someone we don't all hate how about Andrew Luck?

WSS

[hoorta]

Of course I'm not talking about an incompetent quarterback I'm talking about a decent quarterback.

I'm disappointed did Brandon Weeden never panned out.

I never like to see someone with promise hit the skids but I admit that he apparently didn't have what it takes to be even average at the position. Jason Campbell and Brian Hoyer both seem to have the ability to be at least somewhat above average in the right situation.

E

I think to counter your position do you think that Ben Roethlisberger would take the Jaguars to the Superbowl this year?

Or maybe I should have said someone we don't all hate how about Andrew Luck?

WSS

 

 

Problem there Steve is you put a decent qb behind a terrible offensive line- you get Tim Couch- David Carr syndrome. They get pulverized.

[calfoxwc]

Brees is the closest equal you'll find to Peyton. DaBuckeye

*******************************

That helps me make my point. Shep is talking about paying a price

to move up into the first round to get the qb.

 

I mentioned Drew Brees, who was drafted 32nd....in the SECOND ROUND.

 

Therefore, if you find your guy, you could just let him come to you. If you

"have" to have one guy that is going to go in the picks before you, yeah...

 

but sometimes, you can get your guy a little later. I really like Murray in the second round.

 

That's given that you drafted a couple of stars in the first round. More likely, the Browns

will pick their guy, and if they don't have any other choice, they will pay a couple of picks to

move up.

 

But you have to "know" that you are drafting a legit future pro ball qb. We'll just see.

[Flyin J]

Yeah, like I said before and if you look at the history of the NFL, you are MUCH more likely to find a franchise QB in the first 10 picks. There are definitely exceptions but if you look at the percentages top 10 work out more often. You could use every 2-7th round pick from now till the end of time and still never find a Brees or Brady. The first thing we should do is take all the hand measurements and wonderlic scores and draft the guy with the best combination of those two things alone.

[Westside Steve]

 

 

Problem there Steve is you put a decent qb behind a terrible offensive line- you get Tim Couch- David Carr syndrome. They get pulverized.

Yeah, that's my point exactly. Tim Couch gets drafted by a great team he's still playing and probably has a few Pro Bowls to his credit.

WSS

[gftChris]

Yeah, like I said before and if you look at the history of the NFL, you are MUCH more likely to find a franchise QB in the first 10 picks. There are definitely exceptions but if you look at the percentages top 10 work out more often. You could use every 2-7th round pick from now till the end of time and still never find a Brees or Brady. The first thing we should do is take all the hand measurements and wonderlic scores and draft the guy with the best combination of those two things alone.

I wonder how much of that is people thinking they have to draft a QB in the top 10. Maybe none, maybe a little.

[Flyin J]

If they don't someone else will, and while its the games most important position, its also the biggest lottery ticket. Nobody can predict if a quarterback will have "it" and be successful. All they can do is record the measurables, watch some film and take their best guess.