MasterDog Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 That 2012 draft still makes me sick in my stomach. 28 year old Brandon Weeden??? WTF! Rd. Overall Team QB Role 1 1 IND Andrew Luck 1st 1 2 WAS Robert Griffin III 1st 1 8 MIA Ryan Tannehill 1st 1 22 CLE Brandon Weeden 1st 2 57 DEN Brock Osweiler 3rd 3 75 SEA Russell Wilson 1st or 2nd 3 88 PHI Nick Foles 3rd 4 102 WAS Kirk Cousins 3rd 6 185 ARI Ryan Lindley 3rd 7 243 GB B.J. Coleman 3rd 7 253 IND Chandler Harnish 3rd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 2012 joe banner was still in philly for the draft even though i doubt he had any influence on the draft, even though he was lurie's right hand man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Fair enough... still awaiting your breakdowns. Thanks. I remembered all the bits. They just did not coalesce in my mind the way you originally summarized them... and they still do not. Nothing in the quotes says they are going to draft a QB at #4. Nothing says they are even going to draft their "great QB" vs. trading for or signing him. Nothing in the quotes says they are going to let the percieved need for a QB influence their analysis of the QBs that are available. But in fairness, nothing says they won't... No one player is going to be added to the exclusion of all others, so that's no basis for an argument. That a great QB has more impact tham adding a great WR is not the argument. That Watkins will not be a great WR is not an argument I have heard. That any of the top QB prospects have shortcomings (pun unintended) that may prevent their greatness is in arguments against each that I have read. You apparently love the path to 8 wins with Bortles, but would settle for liking the Manziel path, presumably with a WR added later in the draft. I love my path with Hoyer and Watkins. Which has never been my argument not that of several others. Unless it's in a thread I've yet to read this morning, I'm still awaiting your reasoned counter to my injury potential rational. Not sure how you square your analysis with Pettine's words. Hoyer & Watkins? I love the idea too. No one is saying we shouldn't draft a qb- but there can be discussion if any of the top 4 are worth spending that #4 pick on, much less throwing multiple picks to move up to draft one. Damn near certainty one of them will be there @ #4. Oh, I'll live with Johnny Football should the Browns decide he's the man- like I have any choice in the matter. But I like Watkins, Mason, and Garrapolo in the Hoorta mock draft v 1.0 .I could do a Rich4Eagle and blow my own horn showing my superior draft acumen as opposed to the Browns FO since 1999. (Incidentally, my only two major mistakes were falling in love with Couch prematurely, and seriously under rating Ngata's potential as a DL.) Haslam and Baner have made it abundantly clear they are not locked in on Manziel, so whoever started that BS rumor ought to be taken out and shot for spreading false information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Fair enough... still awaiting your breakdowns. Thanks. I remembered all the bits. They just did not coalesce in my mind the way you originally summarized them... and they still do not. Nothing in the quotes says they are going to draft a QB at #4. Nothing says they are even going to draft their "great QB" vs. trading for or signing him. Nothing in the quotes says they are going to let the percieved need for a QB influence their analysis of the QBs that are available. But in fairness, nothing says they won't... No one player is going to be added to the exclusion of all others, so that's no basis for an argument. That a great QB has more impact tham adding a great WR is not the argument. That Watkins will not be a great WR is not an argument I have heard. That any of the top QB prospects have shortcomings (pun unintended) that may prevent their greatness is in arguments against each that I have read. You apparently love the path to 8 wins with Bortles, but would settle for liking the Manziel path, presumably with a WR added later in the draft. I love my path with Hoyer and Watkins. Which has never been my argument not that of several others. Unless it's in a thread I've yet to read this morning, I'm still awaiting your reasoned counter to my injury potential rationale. Not sure how you square your analysis with Pettine's words. I just don't subscribe to the notion that Watkins is a flawless prospect. Every prospect, no matter the position, has inherent risks. If you recall, Watkins was arrested for possession of drugs in the offseason. People are quick to judge Manziel for his off-the-field issues, yet dismiss Watkins' arrest. Not that they're in the same league, as far as attitude goes, but it's still an issue nonetheless. It's hard to win in this league without a quarterback, that's proven. I don't think anyone will argue that. The quarterback is the keystone position of a football team. To me, taking the best one available as early as possible is a no brainer. I understand people are wary of taking a QB based on our previous success, or lack thereof. It's frustrating to see us follow in the same path as we do every year, however. There were 20 first round quarterbacks (1st 32 picks) taken in the drafts between Tim Couch and Brady Quinn (2000-2006). 11 of those quarterbacks have earned at least 1 Pro Bowl nomination. 13 have made it to the playoffs at least once. At least 4 have Super Bowl rings. We've take exactly one quarterback in the top ten in the last 15 years, and he was arguably the best and most talented quarterback we've had since the 80's. Unfortunately, he didn't have an offensive line or any playmakers. That's not going to be the case with whoever we bring in now. We have the leagues best WR, a Pro Bowl LT, a Pro Bowl C, and a Pro Bowl TE along with a mediocre-to-decent rest of the offensive line that, regardless of what people believe, finished in the middle of the league in production. Exactly how far has the waiting game gotten us? I'm not saying take a quarterback early solely because they are available early, I'm saying take the best quarterback you have rated, no matter the cost. Don't play the waiting game and say "Oh, well there's a serviceable guy we can get later in the draft". Serviceable doesn't win Super Bowls, ask Chad Pennington. I square my analysis with Pettine's words in that it's exactly what he said. He said they would evaluate the roster and make a determination of the scheme to be implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectralcow Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Despite my unwavering insistence that the Browns could benefit by making more of an effort in the run game than they did in 2013, I do agree that the Browns may as well use the #4 pick on a QB. I also agree that it is an appropriate time to take that chance again. For this team right now, I really like a BPA approach, but the QB situation does need to be addressed. If the Browns have a very good reason to believe that some QB they can get at #26 is going to have the potential to be great, then I wouldn't complain if they waited until then. I do think that a substantial effort has to be made to address the problem in the draft, though, and I agree that the earlier they take that shot, the better chance they have of getting a guy who can be great. I do find the statistic about the 20 first round QBs a little alarming, though. Only 11 have ever made a Pro Bowl? That's just over half. Derek Anderson made a Pro Bowl. Josh Freeman made a Pro Bowl. You mean to tell me that (according to that stat) the Browns have just slightly over a 50% chance of selecting a QB in the first round that ever does as well as Anderson or Freeman? That's not really encouraging. In fact, it is kind of scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Despite my unwavering insistence that the Browns could benefit by making more of an effort in the run game than they did in 2013, I do agree that the Browns may as well use the #4 pick on a QB. I also agree that it is an appropriate time to take that chance again. For this team right now, I really like a BPA approach, but the QB situation does need to be addressed. If the Browns have a very good reason to believe that some QB they can get at #26 is going to have the potential to be great, then I wouldn't complain if they waited until then. I do think that a substantial effort has to be made to address the problem in the draft, though, and I agree that the earlier they take that shot, the better chance they have of getting a guy who can be great. I do find the statistic about the 20 first round QBs a little alarming, though. Only 11 have ever made a Pro Bowl? That's just over half. Derek Anderson made a Pro Bowl. Josh Freeman made a Pro Bowl. You mean to tell me that (according to that stat) the Browns have just slightly over a 50% chance of selecting a QB in the first round that ever does as well as Anderson or Freeman? That's not really encouraging. In fact, it is kind of scary. Yeah, the success rate of first round quarterbacks hovers around 50%. Mike or Tour or someone else posted a stat in the same vein and the results were similar. It's far and away a better percentage than QB's taken outside of the first round. Freeman and Anderson never made it to the postseason as starters, and that's the only stat I care about. I couldn't care less if a Browns QB ever goes to the Pro Bowl, so long as we make it to the Super Bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Yeah, the success rate of first round quarterbacks hovers around 50%. Mike or Tour or someone else posted a stat in the same vein and the results were similar. It's far and away a better percentage than QB's taken outside of the first round. Freeman and Anderson never made it to the postseason as starters, and that's the only stat I care about. I couldn't care less if a Browns QB ever goes to the Pro Bowl, so long as we make it to the Super Bowl. Pretty much what I'm saying TC- if we think the talent is there, you use that #4 pick on a qb, if not, you wait a bit. Rothlisberger, Rodgers, Marino, Brees, and Farve are proof just because you don't draft a guy top 5 doesn't mean you can't get a top qb. Just no 29 year old rookies this time, OK? My fear is Lombardi wouldn't know what talent was if it walked up to him and bit him in the ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectralcow Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Right. I wasn't disagreeing at all. I just think the stat puts some things in perspective, especially for those who may assume that the chances that a QB drafted in the first round will be amazing are pretty high. They are definitely highER, but it obviously isn't unusual for a QB drafted in the first round to never be "great." Don't read that the wrong way, though; I'm all for taking a QB at #4 if that's where we need to take a QB with the best chance for success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Hey Z..... can we lose the Chud autocorrect now? I just don't subscribe to the notion that Watkins is a flawless prospect. Every prospect, no matter the position, has inherent risks.I understand people are wary of taking a QB based on our previous success, or lack thereof. Exactly how far has the waiting game gotten us? I'm not saying take a quarterback early solely because they are available early, I'm saying take the best quarterback you have rated, no matter the cost. Don't play the waiting game and say "Oh, well there's a serviceable guy we can get later in the draft". Serviceable doesn't win Super Bowls, ask Ch(a)d Pennington.I square my analysis with Pettine's words in that it's exactly what he said. He said they would evaluate the roster and make a determination of the scheme to be implemented. Thanks for the reply... just to clarify a couple points. While off-field issues have to be considered, I am not concerned about Sammy's. My Manziel concern is an on-field one. Past history has absolutely nothing to do with my perception of the upcoming draft. Frustration impairs judgement... if you are sure it is not shading your evaluation of this QB draft class, that's good enough for me. I do not think Pennington is a good case in point. Barring injury he had greatness in his future... at least that is what I saw. As for squaring words... it's a chicken and egg thing. You wrote it was the scheme they wanted to run that would determine which of two QBs they would (should) take. What I read (hear) in Pettine's words is that could only be true in case of a tie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted January 28, 2014 Report Share Posted January 28, 2014 Hey Z..... can we lose the Chud autocorrect now? Was not aware of that one. I always wondered why Gipper always referred to Pennington as "Chud" when doing his lists. I don't know what the possible motivation was to change "Chad" to "Chud" unless it stems from the Chud Johnson days. I changed it. But now A.J. Green will be A.J. Pink Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Tour, I work full time and am doing my masters project. Pay my bills and I'll get those breakdowns to you pronto lol Pfffft... lazy bum... But now A.J. Green will be A.J. Pink LMAO... classic! A.J. Green... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiott Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 If we can't grab manziel we the 4th pick, we shouldn't take a qb in the first round. I mean if manziel is gone before the 4th, we can take an exceptional player in watkins or clowney. Then we go cornerback with the 26th (passing league). Then here's the point. We have a high second round draft pick. I watched garoppolo in the east-west shrine game and in the senior bowl and i absolutly fell in love with him. He's smart, a good guy, very fast on his feet and on his decision making. He's accurate, has a great vision, he is use to north climat. I understant the point that says : "we have to draft a qb high because it has never worked before with late rounds qb". But we have a really good qb in hoyer. He's only 29. Everybody in the league praise his game. I trust him. The coach loves him. Grab garoppolo and put him behind Brian for the year to make him learn the game. I'm sur that we can have a great year with hoyer at qb. We shouldn't reach for a qb outside of johnny football in the first round. Thoughts ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Garoppolo - it'll catch hell, but I watch him take a snap and get the ball out FAST - quick release, very accurate, makes brilliant decisions, and can take off and run, too. I don't see that many fast decisions with manziel. But Garoppolo is very, very smart, and very quick - that release reminds me of...Dan Marino's. I want to go back and watch Marino fire the ball out, perfectly, on time, and compare Garoppolo doing the same thing. There's a whole bunch of things to like about Manziel...but I'm still not sold, especially not top five pick sold. If the Browns drafted both of them, I'd be a lot happier. Question, to me - is how much of Manziel scrambling, is his slightly? slower? ability to read the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Garapollo did look very good in the all star games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Garapollo would be very good. His flaws are minimal IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 great. we got people on the fidget QB, the sticks QB and now the ginny QB bandwagons. i hope they (FO) fuck us all and pick a RB #1. just for shits and giggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiott Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Arm strenght is overated. Does Drew brees have a huge arm strenght ? Manziel ? No but they are great players He is accurate and takes quick decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Arm strenght is overated. Does Drew brees have a huge arm strenght ? Manziel ? No but they are great players He is accurate and takes quick decision. are you kidding me? brees has one of the strongest arms in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Arm strenght is overated. Does Drew brees have a huge arm strenght ? Manziel ? No but they are great players He is accurate and takes quick decision. Arm strength is not overrated. If Andy Dalton wants to throw out patterns to Joe Haden for another 10 years, I'm fine with that. Why are we talking about this late round clown when we have 3 picks in the top 36 and no franchise quarterback? If it's not Manziel it will be Bridgewater, or Bortles, or Carr ... Not Janine Garoppolo or whoever. Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Arm strength is not overrated. If Andy Dalton wants to throw out patterns to Joe Haden for another 10 years, I'm fine with that. Why are we talking about this late round clown when we have 3 picks in the top 36 and no franchise quarterback? If it's not Manziel it will be Bridgewater, or Bortles, or Carr ... Not Janine Garoppolo or whoever. Z You do realize the guy got some Heisman votes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 You do realize the guy got some Heisman votes? No, I don't see him in the top ten. Maybe his high school coach and his dad voted for him. A.J. McCarron got a ton of Heisman votes and I don't want him either. If he doesn't have a gun, then he has to be near perfect with his precision. Why are we talking about the fifth best QB prospect when we have the fourth pick? Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 No, I don't see him in the top ten. Maybe his high school coach and his dad voted for him. A.J. McCarron got a ton of Heisman votes and I don't want him either. If he doesn't have a gun, then he has to be near perfect with his precision. Why are talking about the fifth best QB prospect when we have the fourth pick? Zombo Because they're Browns fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyceRolls Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 If we can't grab manziel we the 4th pick, we shouldn't take a qb in the first round. I mean if manziel is gone before the 4th, we can take an exceptional player in watkins or clowney. Then we go cornerback with the 26th (passing league). Then here's the point. We have a high second round draft pick. I watched garoppolo in the east-west shrine game and in the senior bowl and i absolutly fell in love with him. He's smart, a good guy, very fast on his feet and on his decision making. He's accurate, has a great vision, he is use to north climat. I understant the point that says : "we have to draft a qb high because it has never worked before with late rounds qb". But we have a really good qb in hoyer. He's only 29. Everybody in the league praise his game. I trust him. The coach loves him. Grab garoppolo and put him behind Brian for the year to make him learn the game. I'm sur that we can have a great year with hoyer at qb. We shouldn't reach for a qb outside of johnny football in the first round. Thoughts ? Is this to say that Garoppolo is your second rated QB behind Manziel? What if Bridgewater or Bortles is there at 4 do you propose the browns still wait until the second round to select Garoppolo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 No, I don't see him in the top ten. Maybe his high school coach and his dad voted for him. A.J. McCarron got a ton of Heisman votes and I don't want him either. If he doesn't have a gun, then he has to be near perfect with his precision. Why are we talking about the fifth best QB prospect when we have the fourth pick? Zombo Oooh, those rocket armed QBs We-Done and Andersuck sure got us somewhere. It's all about reading the defense, getting the ball out fast, and anticipating your receivers breaking open. Unless the guy is a total noodle arm (Ken Dorsey) I'll take accuracy over velocity every time. I've never heard "rocket arm" attributed to Peyton Manning. Is this to say that Garoppolo is your second rated QB behind Manziel? What if Bridgewater or Bortles is there at 4 do you propose the browns still wait until the second round to select Garoppolo? Um, hell no. LOL, though if Bridgewater and Bortles are both gone- the Johnny Football hatas club will take Garrapolo over JF, not @ #4 though. Personally, Manziel-Minnesota has a nice ring to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Oooh, those rocket armed QBs We-Done and Andersuck sure got us somewhere. It's all about reading the defense, getting the ball out fast, and anticipating your receivers breaking open. Unless the guy is a total noodle arm (Ken Dorsey) I'll take accuracy over velocity every time. I've never heard "rocket arm" attributed to Peyton Manning. Manning had a very strong arm before his surgery. You can be successful in the NFL without a rocket if you do all the things you mentioned and you have amazing accuracy, like Joe Montana or the Bronco Manning. But why are we discussing accuracy versus velocity instead of discussing the prospects that have both? Bridgewater, Manziel, Bortles and Carr all have major league arms, right? And they've shown good accuracy. There's four guys better than Janine ... and we have the fourth pick. So, we're going to pass on a QB, grab a wr or de or something, and then settle for a prospect that is not as highly regarded? We're talking about Quarterback here ... get the best prospect and don't look back. If he doesn't work out, oh well, you tried ... maybe we'll get lucky and Hoyer or a 5th round pick will be the guy ... but if we don't try for the best, we're stupid. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDawg31 Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Manning had a very strong arm before his surgery. You can be successful in the NFL without a rocket if you do all the things you mentioned and you have amazing accuracy, like Joe Montana or the Bronco Manning. But why are we discussing accuracy versus velocity instead of discussing the prospects that have both? Bridgewater, Manziel, Bortles and Carr all have major league arms, right? And they've shown good accuracy. There's four guys better than Janine ... and we have the fourth pick. So, we're going to pass on a QB, grab a wr or de or something, and then settle for a prospect that is not as highly regarded? We're talking about Quarterback here ... get the best prospect and don't look back. If he doesn't work out, oh well, you tried ... maybe we'll get lucky and Hoyer or a 5th round pick will be the guy ... but if we don't try for the best, we're stupid. Zombo Bridgewater seems like the one that meets all the criteria but the size scares me. I wish the combine would start so we can get his real size on paper. Now that Shanahan is onboard he may prefer Bridgewater. RG3 is not really that much heavier than Bridgewater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Bridgewater seems like the one that meets all the criteria but the size scares me. I wish the combine would start so we can get his real size on paper. Now that Shanahan is onboard he may prefer Bridgewater. RG3 is not really that much heavier than Bridgewater. Bridgewater is a little slight, but he may fill in some too. I like both Bridgewater and Manziel, and if I'm the Browns ... I'm coming away with one of them. Ya, neither are big and Manziel likes to run around ... so lock Brian Hoyer into a nice contract at 3 or 4 million a year while Bridgewater/Manziel are on their rookie contract, both as a fallback and an injury replacement. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyceRolls Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I'll be ecstatic if the browns land Bridgewater. With Haslam talking about the thousands of hours going into qb research don't be surprised if the browns trade up to #1 overall to select Bridgewater IF that's who they target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcam222 Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 No, I don't see him in the top ten. Maybe his high school coach and his dad voted for him. A.J. McCarron got a ton of Heisman votes and I don't want him either. If he doesn't have a gun, then he has to be near perfect with his precision. Why are we talking about the fifth best QB prospect when we have the fourth pick? Zombo Because we are Browns fan I suppose is one answer lol. Another possibility is that some of us think the the "top four" prospects , or at least those of them who remain at pick 4 aren't worthy of being selected that high in the draft. Those of us that believe that could be wrong and could be right , no different that the teams who select them find out every year. Some are hits and some are misses. It would not bother me in the least to see us take Watkins at 4 and the best athlete on the board with our remaining first rounder and follow it with someone like Garropolo in the 2nd round. Dig who posted on here seems to think a lot of the Stanford guy to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDawg31 Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Bridgewater is a little slight, but he may fill in some too. I like both Bridgewater and Manziel, and if I'm the Browns ... I'm coming away with one of them. Ya, neither are big and Manziel likes to run around ... so lock Brian Hoyer into a nice contract at 3 or 4 million a year while Bridgewater/Manziel are on their rookie contract, both as a fallback and an injury replacement. Zombo What I like most about Bridgewater is he was successful running a pro style O. Not sure how often Manziel was under center vs shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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