2022 Draft Prospects and off-season addition breakdowns.

[Korsou Dawg]

The offense isn't even a concern. The defense on the other hand...

Pitsburg has one of the worst O-lines in football, but managed to neutralize our pass rush for 99% of the game. And after rightfully being criticized for the plays they gave up the first two games, our secondary now only focussed on preventing getting beat over the top.

If this doesn't improve, better teams and QBs are going to have a field day against us. 

[tiamat63]

27 minutes ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Pitsburg has one of the worst O-lines in football, but managed to neutralize our pass rush for 99% of the game. 

If this doesn't improve, better teams and QBs are going to have a field day against us. 

Pretty much a 'to be expected' type of mentality on this one.  

Outside of Myles, we have no additional pass rush from anywhere along the line unless Clowney is back.

- Wright is a rookie that has 1 pressure on a ton of snaps.

- Taven Bryan was an RAS warrior, not so much a quality football player.

- Double T, god love him for the Buckeye he is, was a tweener even in college.

- Jordan Elliot is a role player and not much more.

- The rest of the edge group outside of Myles and Clowney is incredibly 'who?'.

 

 There was a reason I was so excited about any potential that Perrion Winfrey may have shown, and it really was paralleled by how the Rams built their defensive front last year.     You have the value on the IDL right up the middle with gap pluggers (Gaines) you have an elite interior pass rusher (Donald) and then an elite edge rusher (Von)  

 In the modern NFL, you need two pass rushers anymore.   Having Clowney across from Myles is great, don't get me wrong.  But if PW was to emerge as a rushing threat from the 3 tech?  That's how I prefer to build my front.   Because dealing with pressure from the edge AND IDL makes things a whole lot more difficult for coaches and QB's as opposed to just edge pressure alone from both sides.

 

 Sadly this team hasn't put any decent picks into IDL for any reason the last 5 years.  Top 100 picks spent there are Jordan Elliot and..... that's it.     So unless you get quality players over in free agency or trade, if those mid round picks don't hit, you're in a world of hurt with receipts to show that you didn't really put priority on the position to begin with.

 ATL might not be able to exploit this group, but the Pats sure as hell can, have and will continue to. 

[Dutch Oven]

Allow me to go all Ohio State homer, but I'd love to see the Browns look hard at TE Cade Stover 

He's bounced around some in Columbus (used to play LB) but looks pretty damn good at TE now, and would look great with Njoku. 

[Korsou Dawg]

@tiamat63has me convinced we need to use 2nd rounder to draft the best DT available, or trade for one. I would also say that is unlikely, as that doesn't fit into the algorithms the Ivy leaguers use. They just seem to rate edges and corners higher. 

[tiamat63]

14 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Allow me to go all Ohio State homer, but I'd love to see the Browns look hard at TE Cade Stover 

 

Farm boy from Lexington too.  

 

3 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

@tiamat63has me convinced we need to use 2nd rounder to draft the best DT available, or trade for one. I would also say that is unlikely, as that doesn't fit into the algorithms the Ivy leaguers use. They just seem to rate edges and corners higher. 

Noticing a trend watching more of the coaches film from other teams while I place my wagers this morning.... awful lot of calls starting or ending with 2 high shell shifts.    I'm even seeing this evolution within the Browns organization itself with Joe Woods, who was a pretty single high predominant type of coach in Denver and early on in CLE.    The shift from the back half of 2020 was out of pure necessity.   Then you saw a mix last year.   This season has been almost none existent save for here and there.

The cover 3 and cover 1 single highs that were all the rage for the better part of a decade are.... slowly vanishing?   I suspect it's for several different reasons.  But if that's the case, I'm curious how blitz rates this season look across the league.  Wouldn't surprise me to see them drop, considering the renewed focus on defensive holding and the flag happy nature of NFL refs to begin with.    

 All of this adds up, IMHO, to putting a more concentrated effort to devoting resources to your defensive front and making sure your pass rush generates quality pressure edge to interior.  

Doesn't mean the Browns HAVE to spend a 2nd round pick on IDL.    The guys of my eye the last few years have been...

Gregg Gaines  4th round

Poona Ford   UDFA

Alim McNeil  3rd round

Bravvion Roy  7th round

 

 But the key is to put in the work to find them, have the eye for talent and to not stop bringing in SOME type of talent every year.  What the Browns have done the last 6 seasons is criminal.   And the fact you had podcasts, beat-writers and journalists attempting to pimp Logan Glen as possibly making this roster is really a highlight of how far the standard as fallen.

[Korsou Dawg]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Farm boy from Lexington too.  

 

Noticing a trend watching more of the coaches film from other teams while I place my wagers this morning.... awful lot of calls starting or ending with 2 high shell shifts.    I'm evening seeing this evolution within the Browns organization itself with Joe Woods, who was a pretty single high predominant type of coach in Denver and early on in CLE.    The shift from the back half of 2020 was out of pure necessity.   Then you saw a mix last year.   This season has been almost none existent save for here and there.

The cover 3 and cover 1 single highs that were all the rage for the better part of a decade are.... slowly vanishing?   I suspect it's for several different reasons.  But if that's the case, I'm curious how blitz rates these season look across the league.  Wouldn't surprise me to see them drop, considering the renewed focus on defensive holding and the flag happy nature of NFL refs to begin with.    

 All of this adds up, IMHO, to putting a more concentrated effort to devoting resources to your defensive front and making sure your pass rush generates quality pressure edge to interior.  

Doesn't mean the Browns HAVE to spend a 2nd round pick on IDL.    The guys of my eye the last few years have been...

Gregg Gaines  4th round

Poona Ford   UDFA

Alim McNeil  3rd round

Bravvion Roy  7th round

 

 But the key is to put in the work to find them, have the eye for talent and to not bring in SOME type of talent every year.  What the Browns have done the last 6 seasons is criminal.   And the fact you had podcasts, beat-writers and journalists attempting to pimp Logan Glen as possibly making this roster is really a highlight of how far the standard as fallen.

With Winfrey apparently deemed unworthy to suit up, and seeing our D-line struggle against Pitsburg, do we see Suh becoming an option for a one year mercenary deal? Especially if we are in a position to reach the play-offs towards the end of the season. 

[Flugel]

8 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

With Winfrey apparently deemed unworthy to suit up, and seeing our D-line struggle against Pitsburg, do we see Suh becoming an option for a one year mercenary deal? Especially if we are in a position to reach the play-offs towards the end of the season. 

Nothing wrong with your ambition at all KD!   I live in the Tampa area and the word is Suh doesn't want to play football any more unless he either gets really overpaid or he's guaranteed to play on a team that goes very deep into the post season. 

[Dutch Oven]

For reference, the draft picks the Browns currently have for the 2023 NFL Draft:

First Round: None
Second Round: (1)
Third Round: (1)
Fourth Round: (2)
Fifth Round: (2)
Sixth Round: (1)
Seventh Round: (1)

[Flugel]

10 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Farm boy from Lexington too.  

 

Noticing a trend watching more of the coaches film from other teams while I place my wagers this morning.... awful lot of calls starting or ending with 2 high shell shifts.    I'm even seeing this evolution within the Browns organization itself with Joe Woods, who was a pretty single high predominant type of coach in Denver and early on in CLE.    The shift from the back half of 2020 was out of pure necessity.   Then you saw a mix last year.   This season has been almost none existent save for here and there.

The cover 3 and cover 1 single highs that were all the rage for the better part of a decade are.... slowly vanishing?   I suspect it's for several different reasons.  But if that's the case, I'm curious how blitz rates this season look across the league.  Wouldn't surprise me to see them drop, considering the renewed focus on defensive holding and the flag happy nature of NFL refs to begin with.    

 All of this adds up, IMHO, to putting a more concentrated effort to devoting resources to your defensive front and making sure your pass rush generates quality pressure edge to interior.  

Doesn't mean the Browns HAVE to spend a 2nd round pick on IDL.    The guys of my eye the last few years have been...

Gregg Gaines  4th round

Poona Ford   UDFA

Alim McNeil  3rd round

Bravvion Roy  7th round

 

 But the key is to put in the work to find them, have the eye for talent and to not stop bringing in SOME type of talent every year.  What the Browns have done the last 6 seasons is criminal.   And the fact you had podcasts, beat-writers and journalists attempting to pimp Logan Glen as possibly making this roster is really a highlight of how far the standard as fallen.

Round 3 is fine, Baltimore drafted a prospect like UConn's Travis Jones at #76 overall.  We can get great value in round 2 or 3.  It's quite possible I'm over-reacting about that 1st half vrs Pittsburgh; but the Browns would be foolish to blow this position off IMO. 

[Dutch Oven]

8 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Round 3 is fine, Baltimore drafted a prospect like UConn's Travis Jones at #76 overall.  We can get great value in round 2 or 3.  It's quite possible I'm over-reacting about that 1st half vrs Pittsburgh; but the Browns would be foolish to blow this position off IMO. 

Do you have any idea how Travis Jones is doing? I saw you mentioned him earlier, then I happened to come across a mock draft I came up in April, I had the Browns taking him in the 3rd (#78 overall)... I had the Browns taking Cade York in the 7th 🙂

[tiamat63]

34 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Do you have any idea how Travis Jones is doing? I saw you mentioned him earlier, then I happened to come across a mock draft I came up in April, I had the Browns taking him in the 3rd (#78 overall)... I had the Browns taking Cade York in the 7th 🙂

Hasn't taken a snap yet. 

[Dutch Oven]

25 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Hasn't taken a snap yet. 

So he's well rested then. 😏

[Korsou Dawg]

11 hours ago, Flugel said:

Nothing wrong with your ambition at all KD!   I live in the Tampa area and the word is Suh doesn't want to play football any more unless he either gets really overpaid or he's guaranteed to play on a team that goes very deep into the post season. 

Not sure whether to call it ambition, or fear. Without significant improvements to our D, I do not even see us getting out of the division at this stage. That will certainly have to come mostly from improved performance of existing players, but all Tia's preaching about shoring up the middle has me converted.

[tiamat63]

22 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said:

With Winfrey apparently deemed unworthy to suit up, and seeing our D-line struggle against Pitsburg, do we see Suh becoming an option for a one year mercenary deal? Especially if we are in a position to reach the play-offs towards the end of the season. 

At this point I'm willing to try anything. 

[tiamat63]

The gameplan really hasn't changed.  Only the formations, personnel and a bit of window dressing.

- Establish the run through personnel or formation constraint

- Establish the horizontal passing to open up the run or compliment.

- Get Jacoby in rhythm early

- K.I.S.S.    Identify who Jacoby is comfortable with, set them up with looks for choice routes and make the short passing game an extension of the running game

- Calculated deep shots if necessary

 

@Unsympathetic mentioned an article about the Browns coming out in empty.   I didn't get a chance to get around reading it, but I did mention some of the 'why' behind things live and on TBB discord.    Despite the field being a bit damp and the wind at play, the offense seemed to be more than willing to come out in 11 personnel and take the short throws the PIT defense offered them.    Sure beats the hell out of stubbornly beating them into submission when you can take the latter option.   Let's run through a few of those example here, because the offense started hitting on them from the 3rd and 4th drives.   No small coincidence, both drives ended in CLE TD's.

 

 

 

The "gift".

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 Walking a safety out over a slot is risky business when you're in man/man free.   I don't fault the PIT coaches for being a bit stubborn and saying that they're here to shutdown the Browns redzone running game.   Stef and Co. LOVES their pin and pull here.  But at the same time, given Jacoby's efficiency the week before and the willingness the Browns showed to throw the ball on either 1st or 2nd down the previous drives, this was a ballsy call for them.  Because by formation strength, we've removed PIT's best DB (Minkah) from being an immediate factor against this hitch/slant.   Playing man means you'll likely attack away from his leverage.    

 

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 Just because you have a DB aligned inside shade doesn't mean that coverage can't be beat inside as well.  Remember, alignment goes hand in hand with depth and drive.   If a WR can square his route off while you're in a bit of a back peddle and you aren't great at planting then driving downhill, that WR is going to win his route against your leverage either way.

 The edge rusher from the boundary, who didn't drop into a weak hook or some stupid curl/flat now means you're facing a 5th man rush and you're facing man free.  

Winning this rep means 2 big things.

- WR has to re-win his route inside

- QB has to snap his head and deliver with timing.

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Edmunds having to give just enough ground to AC.

Jacoby understands what he has, and his eyes are where they need to be.

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Coop takes his quick 3rd, plants and break underneath inside.  At this point Edmunds' weight is too high and he hasn't hit his back foot to plant and drive.  That step gives you enough time to win. 

Jacoby see's is all the way through and his throwing motion has started.

Minkah is still square but drifting inside the hashes.

 

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 It was  a great throw.   Enough away from Edmunds, but low and away enough where AC could get his eyes back to Minkah and get skinny between the two in order to minimize contact.   

 You don't want to make a habit of forcing throws, not that this was "forced" in that sense.   But you have to be conscious of the amount of danger you're leading your receivers into.  This was just enough on that line where you have the read you want, the throw you want and delivering it without getting someone lit up.

 Pay close attention to the bottom of this frame and think back to what I said above about Minkah's leverage.   Because the '7'  we get from the TE here would likely be the route Jacoby would check into if he believes he has man coverage again, but should Fitz favor that boundary hash and taking away Cooper.    Something I would suspect the Steelers will try to do should a similar redzone situation arise in game 2.   Because Spillaine is beat on that route and a good throw makes it another TD.  At which case, it's a dealers choice based on the single high safety's leverage/alignment.

 

 

 

 Reminded me of another throw against a safety who also had inside leverage from back in the day.   It's when I truly began to understand the subtle post-snap route changes that WR's and QB's had to process and be on the same page with in real time.

 

My QB, Troy Smith, and my dude Anthony Gonzalez - vs Iowa.

Skip to the 3:45 mark for the same design.     Although it's against cover 0, the same principle of re-winning the positive break against the DB's alignment stays the same.

God damn, do I miss that team, those guys and that era.         More to follow soon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tiamat63]

Very next drive.   CLE offense catches PIT being stubborn again with their defense personnel.  

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 The thing about constraints is that they can be both formational and personnel constraints.  In this case, for the Steelers, it's both.     Because you don't have the personnel to matchup with the Browns while they're in their '11' sets when we split Hunt wide and clear this empty.  You only have a handful of checks to respond as a defense, and you're damn well not about to slide into man coverage.   So the motion from Kareem gets the CB to 'bump' wide, not inside.   Like Poker, it's a tell.  And that tell is zone coverage.    You also got a nice friendly tell from Devin Bush who tells his corresponding SAM backer where his assignment is on the #3.  Which means you can pretty much cross him off as the field side edge rusher = 4 man pressure.   That also means Bush has to walk out over your field side #2.  Man, zone... doesn't matter, it's a bad matchup all around for PIT.  And in their single high shell, you're playing a 3 deep the bulk of the time, minus potential rotations off a 4 man pressure (that's coming up next)  Which means you're 3 deep and 4 under.  That tends to invite shorter throws to exploit the removed underneath zone defender.

 

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I think the Browns have found something of a go to here with Amari.  Because they got him some favorable matchups the last couple games sliding him into the #2 weakside.   At this point he's just running choice and reading DB leverage.   Against a 4 under, you tend to have a lot of space to work with, which further helps the emphasis the Browns are placing on the horizontal and short passing game.

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QB and WR being on the same page, getting positive yards on early downs and staying ahead of schedule.  This is un-stubborn play on offense.  Setting yourself up for success against a DEF trying to be a bit too "rigid" in their response to your running game.

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Simple completion and the Browns keep it moving.  Good rhythm and reads by both Jacoby and Amari.  This is how you find easy connection with your QB and best WR.

 

 

I have more from this same drive.  But this is an appetizer for the way the personnel and formations, specifically the empty sets, really helped to benefit the Browns offense.  I know for a lot of people, especially given the weather conditions at the time, are of the belief it goes against conventional wisdom.  And to an extent you're not incorrect, but when you can make it work, there's zero point in beating yourself by playing to the defenses strength(s)

[tiamat63]

Browns don't back down, they come back right out empty in the same 11 personnel grouping. 

 The nice part is the flexibility it offers this team, and in this situational in particular.   Because the Browns don't have to run "tempo".    PIT coaches have the option of either working to change their calls, or possibly running a sub onto the field and taking a risk at the Browns quick snapping to draw a penalty.  By not subbing offensive personnel, you aren't required to give the defense that courtesy as well.

This next play illustrates a couple things.

 1st - the bind the offensive coaches have put the PIT defense in.  They can take their chances in nickel and face the running game, or they came come out in their base and see if the Browns offense can consistently make them pay for it.  That word is probably the biggest part of my football vocabulary - consistently/consistency.  Once or twice is something a lot of coaches will live with.  But ability isn't acknowledged or rewarded until it's shown consistent.  No home plate ump is going to give you a strike call if you can't reliably paint that outside corner.  IF you can/do? Then that's a different story.

2nd - Jacoby's current limitations.

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Hey, look! Another CB over Kareem and a LB walked out over the slot.  Guess who's going to need more help? 

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 Another added benefit of what the Browns did this drive was to either remove the 5th man pass rush by way of formation/personnel constraint, or make the pass rush easily identifiable because of the splits.   It's commonly understood, wide splits and removed receivers help to make coverage a bit more clearly defined in a lot of cases.  Much more difficult to bluff coverages and be complex when you're facing having inferior athletes covering skill positions.

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  The PIT counter inside of sitting in that cover 3 and being picked apart underneath.  They check to what amounts to a 2 high shell cover 6.     I spoke of limitations and this is where Jacoby echo's Baker a bit... expecting too much pre-snap that he doesn't get post snap.   He stays into this boundary read WAY too long.  Worse,  let's say he was expecting cover 3 and wanted that outside throw, the moment he read corner cloud, he should have understood how the #2 was going to bend against a middle field open.

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#2 bends and is going to clear into the window.  Jacoby really had little business leaving this side of the field if he had read cover 2.   At which point, you can come back to your strong #3, Njoku, and let him play basketball on grass.  He's boxing out the MIKE backer, put it on him and let him be big.

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 Ok, so Jacoby doesn't deliver on schedule.   He's still got enough mobility to break contain.   This is how close this was to being a big play.    Amari reads it correctly and breaks upfield.  That's what you do when you're playing to the short side of the field.  And against a cloud corner? fuck, that's stealing when the high safety is run out.

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 Amari see's this coming open, and to Jacoby's credit, he's scrambling to buy time to throw.  Not scrambling just to pick up a couple yards.  

 

 

 Sadly we know the result of this play.  Illegal touching from Amari, but it does go to show this early connection blossoming a bit when things go off-script.    But what a day would it have been had Coop kept his eyes about him and saw his feet remain in bounds.

 

 Either way, empty sets are showing a bit of promise in CLE.  Something we've had terrible results with the last 3 years.  JB's willingness to not panic fire into zone coverage is a big reason that I believe the turnover worthy throws from this formation will be significantly less this by the end of this season than compared to some previous years under Stef.

 

[tiamat63]

Last play from me, same drive, very next throw.  

Browns still in 11... we haven't had to switch personnel this entire time.

 

PIT subs out for their nickel package

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Browns in a common pass protection - 2 jet.  Oline and 1 RB

One of the, if not the best part about this play happens up front IMHO.   The protection slide and understanding how to bottle up this look is primo work.   

- The boundary edge is the RT's responsibility the whole way.  However he drops, so Hudson is going to look for work back to his inside shoulder.

- Once the nose crosses Pocic's face, he knows that IDL is picked up by Tretter.  Because Tretter has no rusher to either his inside or outside shoulder and no off-ball LB walked down over him to threaten a gap.

- Pocic is now free to pickup whoever attacks his inside shoulder.

- Bito tags the 3 tech.

- Wills slow plays the 3 tech to help Bito, but is ready to recover on the nickel rushing from the edge.

 

 This is top notch protection from the mental aspect.

 Side note:  I'm slowly beginning to appreciate Pocic's play within this offense and, as something that was a bit expected, his game has been raised being next to two pro-bowl guards.  Things were looking a little rough for him in pre-season at times and the 1st half of game one.  But since coming out of the locker room 2nd half against Carolina and up until this point, the dude has played at a level he hasn't previously shown before.     And his work in the pin/pull scheme has been pretty fucking outstanding from what I've seen.    Credit Andrew Berry for bringing him in and coach Callahan for getting him to where he needs to be.  

 To my knowledge, I haven't seen a single person sing Ethan's praises.  Well you're probably hearing it here first then, and I'm glad it's from me.   The guy is playing the best football of his career so far in CLE.  He isn't perfect, but he is beyond what I expected.    I can't stress this part enough, it is NOT fucking easy to snap then pull and execute from the center spot.  And finding a player who can do that makes your running game that much better.   If you ever find yourself not believing me, go ask anybody who has ever played that position.  They'll tell you exactly what I just did.

 

Anywho..... back on topic.

 There's a theme emerging here.  The Browns like getting their weakside #2 involved in the short passing game for Jacoby.  This was, depending on how you tag him in the formation, H or Y choice.   And it's something you don't want to spend a ton of time overcoaching either.   Help your receiver understand coverage triangles.  Show him the spacing you want working underneath, then let him be an athlete.  The #1 runs vertical through coverage, Njoku plays a game called "follow the man" and makes his break off what he reads.

 

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Njoku stays somewhat tight on the follow, but takes smart care in his footwork.  Can't over lengthen your stride, then you find yourself too far upfield and not getting your head around.

 

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Njoku understands the corner expanding flat and wide in cloud, then breaks to his outside shoulder off the leverage of the weakside hook LB.

 

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TE on the same page.

QB on the same page.

Both in phase with timing.

Ball is out as David makes his turn.

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Good ball placement.  Weakside hook won't be able to walk under the throw. 

Njoku has broken off his route with a foot ahead of the chains, so if he's stopped on contact, the forward progress gives him the benefit of the spot and the 1st down.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Every week, I've seen something new from the offensive coaches to make sure that what happened last year doesn't repeat itself.    They have shown an understanding of the tools they're working with and the limits of said tooling (Jacoby)   The offense isn't perfect by any means, and we're lacking some serious explosion and route tree exploitation.   But the Browns have managed to so far craft out an efficient unit that can give some run support to our defense, which is just about the exact opposite of what we experienced last year for the bulk of the season.

 With that experience from last year, I can understand the late attention on some of the defensive lapses.  They were the strength of the team, so the primary focus naturally became the offense in the off-season and beyond.  

 I see things that are subtle and not so subtle with wrinkles, calls and tweaks that lead me to believe Stef has done a pretty bang up job for what he has at hand (so far).     I'm sorry if you feel the opposite, because there's really nothing to support, well, whatever dumbass argument you think you have that makes sense in your mind.

 The Browns are playing competitive football and, despite having some severe handicap at the QB position, are still finding ways to be above .500.   A lot through hardwork and coaching, but a gift of good fortune in the respective deficiencies our opponents have shown and future opponents appear to carry.

 ATL looks like they might be an alright squad.  They've given some okay teams a good run for their money and Mariota is playing solid football.   It's a team effort - the offense needs to keep finding ways to be efficient and, god willing, find an explosive play or 3 in the passing game.  The defense needs to get back to playing better in the secondary and hopefully finding some renewed ability along the dline itself.    Would be a damn shame to see the coaches get all the mileage out of Jacoby that anyone has to date, only to be let down by the defense from piss-poor execution and a lack of talent.

[Flugel]

On 9/26/2022 at 7:04 AM, Korsou Dawg said:

Not sure whether to call it ambition, or fear. Without significant improvements to our D, I do not even see us getting out of the division at this stage. That will certainly have to come mostly from improved performance of existing players, but all Tia's preaching about shoring up the middle has me converted.

I meant about Suh - I think he's either all done or wanting to do up a Rob Gronkowski type of contract to rejoin his old team during the 2nd half of the season if they're looking playoff bound.   Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with your thinking at all. Before the draft - there were quite a few of us wanting to draft a DT or 2 that could help us.  

See that stuff in bold up top?  You gotta keep that quiet or Tia's gonna start charging us for his opinion.

 

 

[Orion]

Receiving
Player    REC    YDS    YDS/REC    LNG    TD

Amari Cooper 19    219    11.5    32    2

David Njoku 13    128    9.8    19    1

Kareem Hunt 9    54    6    24    1

Donovan Peoples-Jones 7    70    10    15    0

Harrison Bryant 5    63    12.6    30    0

Nick Chubb 4    28    7    15    0

David Bell 2    12    6    6    0

Anthony Schwartz 1    19    19    19    0

Demetric Felton 1    3    3    3    0

Pertinent to this thread would be Cooper and Bell.  Cooper is playing as well as we could've hoped for thus far.  A top weapon on the team.  Bell, stumbled out of the gate with his injury which stunted his learning process.  I remember saying during the offseason that we kinda' needed him to be good right out of the box.   And the numbers from our WR's seem to bear that out.  There's a huge drop-off in production from Amari to #2 DPJ.  There's plenty of room there for another WR to step up in there.  

And for the 2021 guys, Felton is dropping off the map and Schwartz gets an end around every so often.  Bryant, the backup TE has 2 1/2 times the catches that those two have combined.   ( we need Bell to emerge as good )

[Flugel]

6 hours ago, Orion said:

Receiving
Player    REC    YDS    YDS/REC    LNG    TD

Amari Cooper 19    219    11.5    32    2

David Njoku 13    128    9.8    19    1

Kareem Hunt 9    54    6    24    1

Donovan Peoples-Jones 7    70    10    15    0

Harrison Bryant 5    63    12.6    30    0

Nick Chubb 4    28    7    15    0

David Bell 2    12    6    6    0

Anthony Schwartz 1    19    19    19    0

Demetric Felton 1    3    3    3    0

Pertinent to this thread would be Cooper and Bell.  Cooper is playing as well as we could've hoped for thus far.  A top weapon on the team.  Bell, stumbled out of the gate with his injury which stunted his learning process.  I remember saying during the offseason that we kinda' needed him to be good right out of the box.   And the numbers from our WR's seem to bear that out.  There's a huge drop-off in production from Amari to #2 DPJ.  There's plenty of room there for another WR to step up in there.  

And for the 2021 guys, Felton is dropping off the map and Schwartz gets an end around every so often.  Bryant, the backup TE has 2 1/2 times the catches that those two have combined.   ( we need Bell to emerge as good )

Good stuff!  

 I will say that despite the last 2 weeks, DPJ was the guy with all the clutch catches and the go to guy in the week 1 victory 6 rec for 60 yards.  Since then, only 1 catch for 10 yards though.  I'm okay with that when it translated to getting Amari Cooper more involved than he was in week 1.  I think the targets went up quite a bit for Cooper in the last 2 weeks.  

[tiamat63]

9 hours ago, Flugel said:

I meant about Suh - I think he's either all done or wanting to do up a Rob Gronkowski type of contract to rejoin his old team during the 2nd half of the season if they're looking playoff bound.   Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with your thinking at all. Before the draft - there were quite a few of us wanting to draft a DT or 2 that could help us.  

See that stuff in bold up top?  You gotta keep that quiet or Tia's gonna start charging us for his opinion.

 

 

Re: Suh, it's clear he wants to go to a contender.

What all "contender" entails is entirely within his mind.   But part of me would like to believe, that if this Browns team is at or over .500 before the trade deadline, NS would be willing to join given the success and the eminent return of Deshaun at that point.

 

Re: DT - I've only been through the one game, but Travis Jones looked like he belonged.   A few times he was beaten, other times he held his assignment and made a couple plays.   Typical stuff for a rookie with talent that needs time.  Would have I preferred him over Emerson? Yes.     Even though I am a believing in BPA for the draft, the need was just too great at the position at the time.

And hey, the Patreon will be up at some point.  Baby needs to get this Browns YT channel going so I can raise funds for a new computer and "battlestation", where I can actually be efficient going back and forth between screens, making life a hell of a lot easier on me than it is now.

Still shocked I haven't seen anything from CLE sports media about Pocic's play.  Especially given how a lot of them clamored for the return of Tretter.  So far, the transition has been smooth.

 

7 hours ago, Orion said:

Cooper is playing as well as we could've hoped for thus far.  A top weapon on the team.  Bell, stumbled out of the gate with his injury which stunted his learning process.  I remember saying during the offseason that we kinda' needed him to be good right out of the box.  

 

 

 Brownies didn't "need" Bell to be good right out the gate. But as the season wears on?  Different story.  I believe he's the type of WR piece that could really bridge the gap on the skillsets of this group with his ability to be effective at every level of the field.   I'm just wondering if it will really take a QB like Watson to unlock that potential though.  

[Flugel]

8 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Re: Suh, it's clear he wants to go to a contender.

What all "contender" entails is entirely within his mind.   But part of me would like to believe, that if this Browns team is at or over .500 before the trade deadline, NS would be willing to join given the success and the eminent return of Deshaun at that point.

Re: DT - I've only been through the one game, but Travis Jones looked like he belonged.   A few times he was beaten, other times he held his assignment and made a couple plays.   Typical stuff for a rookie with talent that needs time.  Would have I preferred him over Emerson? Yes.     Even though I am a believing in BPA for the draft, the need was just too great at the position at the time.

And hey, the Patreon will be up at some point.  Baby needs to get this Browns YT channel going so I can raise funds for a new computer and "battlestation", where I can actually be efficient going back and forth between screens, making life a hell of a lot easier on me than it is now.

Still shocked I haven't seen anything from CLE sports media about Pocic's play.  Especially given how a lot of them clamored for the return of Tretter.  So far, the transition has been smooth.

 Brownies didn't "need" Bell to be good right out the gate. But as the season wears on?  Different story.  I believe he's the type of WR piece that could really bridge the gap on the skillsets of this group with his ability to be effective at every level of the field.   I'm just wondering if it will really take a QB like Watson to unlock that potential though.  

Man, I hate it when the Rats end up with guys I felt like we really needed (pre-draft).  For example, mid-round guys like Mark Andrews and Travis Jones.  The rookie learning curve you mentioned for both Travis Jones him and David Bell are both dependent on the volume of reps in terms of how fast they come of age.  The shortened preseason has probably impacted that for both guys.  Then again, now that Travis plays for the rats - I'm actually kind of hoping I pegged him wrong.

Are we still looking needing a Nurse Ratched intervention for Winfrey or will there be any football in the forecast with that guy?

I'm glad you said that about Pocic's play because he has played very well IMO.  If he keeps playing like that - he's gonna remind of the very pleasant surprise Hank Fraley became here (2 years after Philly demoted him to 2nd string).  That guy came here in September (after all other efforts to replace LeCharles Bentley were exhausted).  He didn't just start, he learned the offense and started making all of the calls immediately.  Not only that, if you looked at his age and his build at the time, it was unbelievable to see him pulling and leading the way outside/around end.   He was great at it.  Pocic is doing a very good job of beating guys to the position where he can WIN without needing to overpower. You don't always need to bulldoze with greater horse power especially if it's not wired if/when you can be resourceful. I'd still like to see a better pad height a little more consistently; but the guy is battling.  I can admire that! 

[Orion]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

I will say that despite the last 2 weeks, DPJ was the guy with all the clutch catches and the go to guy in the week 1 victory 6 rec for 60 yards.  Since then, only 1 catch for 10 yards though.  I'm okay with that when it translated to getting Amari Cooper more involved than he was in week 1.  I think the targets went up quite a bit for Cooper in the last 2 weeks.  

It's VERY early in the season.  DPJ 'can' emerge in a bigger way.  But that's not something we've seen during his tenure here.  Which is why I was hoping against hope that Bell would answer the bell in a big way.  (heck, I can hope, right?)  Don't get me wrong, I like DPJ.  He seems quiet, keeps out of the news and out of trouble.  And works hard.  I respect that kind of player.

At least Njoku has emerged as a go-to receiver.  It wasn't long ago that people wanted to run him out of town.

[Korsou Dawg]

10 hours ago, Flugel said:

I meant about Suh - I think he's either all done or wanting to do up a Rob Gronkowski type of contract to rejoin his old team during the 2nd half of the season if they're looking playoff bound.   Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with your thinking at all. Before the draft - there were quite a few of us wanting to draft a DT or 2 that could help us.  

See that stuff in bold up top?  You gotta keep that quiet or Tia's gonna start charging us for his opinion.

 

 

I heard you the first time. My previous comment was more a clarification where I see the Browns currently, which is markedly different compared to the end of the off-season. I was a 'true believer' at that stage, thinking the addition of DW made us an immediate SB contender. I even saw our D-line as a strength, with the most talented Edge in Myles, and probably the best running mate in Clowney. Winfrey seemed an athletic specimen, which I had high hopes for.  

Through immaculate mental conception (wink, wink), I have come to the conclusion that both quality and depth at DT. Winfrey seems stuck in the naughty bin, and we are having big trouble stopping the run, and generating any kind of pass rush. This is especially as the game progresses, and our D-line gets gassed. 

I am also mightily unimpressed with our secondary play, which I rated as top-notch before the season started. Maybe Ward is not as elite as his new contract values him, nor Delpit as his draft round. And the coaching went from giving up massive plays on busted coverages multiple times in consecutive games, to some sort of prevent package that allows anything and everything, but getting beat over the top. That sees like an over-reaction, rather than a real improvement. 

Long story short: maybe the talent is not quite what I thought it was, especially on the defensive side. And the defensive en ST coaching does not seem anywhere near play-off worthy. Even if DW does come back firing on all cylinders immediately, which is doubtful, we would be lucky to get out of the division IMO.

[mjp28]

One other point maybe  just maybe the AFCN is not as good as we collectively thought that they were coming into the season. 

Maybe Cincinnati was a bit "lucky" making it into and far into the playoffs  ?

Pittsburgh has QB issues among other things. 

Baltimore may falter a bit at QB among other issues. 

And our beloved BROWNS are strong but might have their own QB issues over a 17 game season, Myles G. might be impared at least in the short run with other IDL and DL questions.   Not a standout DB group.......but they can run the ball !

"That's why they play the game  !"    Or so I've heard,  who wins or loses this week,  I like Cleveland....baby !    

 

[Korsou Dawg]

Reports are that Perrion Winfrey will see reps against Atlanta, with Taven Bryan out. Let's see what this rook can do. 

[tiamat63]

8 minutes ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Reports are that Perrion Winfrey will see reps against Atlanta, with Taven Bryan out. Let's see what this rook can do. 

Really have no choice. Isn't another viable 3tech on roster.  If we're short Myles and possibly Clowney, I wonder how much of a stretch it would be to run some of those under fronts as our base.  Similar to how the Seahawks first started under Coach Carroll.  Would allow us to get a bigger body on the field and work to control the ATL running game on the interior.  Because christ knows Mariota can pull that ball on a read and do enough damage on the edge.

[Flugel]

52 minutes ago, Korsou Dawg said:

Reports are that Perrion Winfrey will see reps against Atlanta, with Taven Bryan out. Let's see what this rook can do. 

I hope this isn't just the summer school veteran in me getting pumped up about seeing him for the 1st time.  I keep hearing how talented this defense is; and we're about 1 injury away from recruiting our next mystery meat market/IDL prospects at some McDonalds' drive-thrus.  I will also recommend the Golden Corral Buffet because I've seen some impressive fast twitchies on bigger frames beating people to the desserts area.  

[tiamat63]

 I always loved those homework assignments at school where they were harder than the test itself.   Which is sort of how the Browns passing game played out against PIT.  For a number of reasons, but the biggest was the coaching staff working to make life as easy on Jacoby as possible.   To date, he's done a great job knocking out what they've given him, and the defensive looks the Steelers tragically ( for their sake) kept showing.   But it's these simple things that are keeping the offense on schedule weren't so simple last year.    Which is why we praise the efficiency of this group now a year removed.  

 That won't always be the case, especially with the Pats right around the corner.  But for now it's nice to get the intended results from where the coaches draw it up.

 Another thing Stef and Co used frequently were mirror concepts.  Like it sounds - similar, if not exact same route combinations, but to the opposite sides of the field.    Accomplishes a couple big things.

 Helps a QB when he identifies man vs spot zone.   Also makes things easier by putting his read first on the safety he's looking to leverage, and tends to make it that simple.   Of course that read is based pre-snap and you hope the defense gives what they show, otherwise things become a bit more.... complicated.  Anywho.

As a DB, anytime you see a big body like that, such as Njoku to the top, I immediately assume slant.  Especially with a QB who is so-so and the weather the way it was.  I'm going to use the boundary as my double team.

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I really have to say, aside from the play of Pocic the past few games, I also have to give it up to Minkah Fitzpatrick.  Sucks to say, because he's a Steelers, but watching him in this game and how the Browns coaches dialed up concepts around throwing off his leverage... really reminds you that he's one of the top DB's in the NFL.   IMHO, top 5, possibly top 3 safety.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JB does a great job not looking this off too fast and letting Hunt release at the weakside LB. That is by design. He's not reading leverage of the hook defender and breaking between them.  The coaches wanted this ball to go to Njoku first and foremost. Coop was a distant 2nd.

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JB does a good job holding Fitz at his initial leverage, which favored Coopers side, then snapping his head and throwing to throw.

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The ball placement was everything.   High, but not high enough for David to have to be a complete acrobat.  Inside of the CB who has to recover across his face.  But keep enough and far enough inside to be upfield and wide of Fitz so there's no way he could get a finger on the ball or create enough contact to force it out.   

 

 

 Mirrored concepts, just another method the Browns coaches are using to help supplement the lack of offensive explosion/ability.   Makes JB's life a lot easier, the personnel alignments favor the routes and vice versa. The offensive coaching staff had a good bead on what the Steelers defensive coaches were doing in their limited redzone coverages - primarily  Cover 1 and cover 3