Unsympathetic Posted October 2, 2022 Report Share Posted October 2, 2022 This game should give us plenty of DL reps to review on our rookies including Winfrey who is active against the Falcons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korsou Dawg Posted October 2, 2022 Report Share Posted October 2, 2022 On 10/1/2022 at 12:18 AM, mjp28 said: One other point maybe just maybe the AFCN is not as good as we collectively thought that they were coming into the season. Bengals beat the 3-0 fins. Ratbirds up against the SB-favorite Bills. We will struggle mightily to get out of the division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2022 Let's go over some early results from today. On that first ATL drive, I saw something awfully familiar that I was worried about - Alex Wright. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Z gets the seal on the edge vs Wright for a couple reasons. - He's high out of his stance - Unbalanced - Working upfield from his first step too fast - Lack of awareness on the reduced split and what might come his way. This one generally speaks to football IQ which, you need A LOT of snaps to start to develop. But there's also a problem with that, because this is a pretty fundamental toss and pull call. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Coaches call it gap stealing, some also call it gap "splitting" since you give the RB an additional read point and cut option. Either way, this type of play gives the RG and LG an easy release to the 2nd level. Your LB's don't stand a chance when they have 300lb bodies on them that fast. The ATL line here does a good job picking off the lead pursuit in Taki and Phillips. And because cut blocking is now illegal, getting the a big body to the edge is like stealing candy. No DB's can go low on the big guys now. I'll check back at the end of the year, but I'd be willing to bet running designs based on the pulling game to the perimeter shoot up quite a bit by the end of this season. Not that getting blockers on smaller CB's wasn't an idea to begin with, but now you've given almost no way for those CB's to take on lineman without a cut. Either way, in this following frame, Wright came out so high and fast in his stance, Drake London really didn't take much to seal him inside and continue washing him down the line. He's so terribly out of balance, he never had a chance to recover. And this is where height works against you if you don't play with consistently low pad level. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Final shot with the open lanes to the edge. Only real way to shut this down is get ahead of it and turn it back inside to pursuit. But then you need your 1tech, Togiai, to be able to crash onto the call carrier. The center crosses Tommy's face, which you can't allow when you're playing that 1tech, and turns his shoulders back inside to prevent him from flowing down the line and effecting the play. This first play is, in a nutshell, the state of the Browns Defensive Line. Especially without Myles or Clowney. It's a bottom 5 group at best. You have a nose who isn't a starter, a 3tech in Jordan Elliot who is quality depth and little else. A rookie edge in Alex Wright who isn't ready for this sort of role, and might never be ready. Then you have Rochelle (spell check) who is a nice story and fights hard, but would be a camp casualty on a lot of teams. This is why I'm passionate about creating work that holds up over time. Because I can go back to reference that work and those notes, and see how things string out beyond the vacuum of that play. So if you're wondering why I said "looked familiar".... Please refer to the 28th-ish post in this thread linked below from my breakdown of Alex Wright. A similar design on the seal and pull to his side that he lost BAD on vs Georgia. For reference, that's a Georgia team who has bodies that will play in the NFL. Specifically why I went looking for that game. ATL likely saw this, especially since Alex a rookie. I have no doubt they have assistants who go back this far to dig on tape on how to attack rookie players beyond the few games of NFL work he's had. Offenses will continue to attack Alex Wrights side until he punishes them for doing so. And this defense has yet another crack in the fortress wall to account for. (28th post, 3rd page) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 3, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2022 On 10/1/2022 at 9:31 AM, tiamat63 said: Really have no choice. Isn't another viable 3tech on roster. If we're short Myles and possibly Clowney, I wonder how much of a stretch it would be to run some of those under fronts as our base. Similar to how the Seahawks first started under Coach Carroll. Would allow us to get a bigger body on the field and work to control the ATL running game on the interior. Because christ knows Mariota can pull that ball on a read and do enough damage on the edge. Welp, you can scratch that one. When Woods' switched up and called some under looks to combat the weakside zone ATL kept beating us with, we got smoked with misdirection and runs to strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korsou Dawg Posted October 3, 2022 Report Share Posted October 3, 2022 @tiamat63 re: your comment about Perrion Winfrey in the game thread. Did notice a nice TFL against the run where their line had all sorts of trouble containing him. Somewhat surprised he played only 16 snaps (29%), as he seems to bring to the table exactly what we need in the interior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 3, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2022 5 hours ago, Korsou Dawg said: @tiamat63 re: your comment about Perrion Winfrey in the game thread. Did notice a nice TFL against the run where their line had all sorts of trouble containing him. Somewhat surprised he played only 16 snaps (29%), as he seems to bring to the table exactly what we need in the interior. Given him being in the doghouse, and especially about some of the comments questioning his dedication to being a professional - I'm not surprised. If he wants to play that bad, he'll have to get a taste of the success in limited volume then earn the snap increase. Good news is, that idea seemed to pay off with him. I would suspect he'll get more snaps against the Chargers. He was about the only consistent force in creating Havoc plays against the ATL zone based runs. I planned on charting his snaps and play first thing when the all-22 drops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 3, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2022 Said this back on page 3 after we drafted him... " But I now see exactly the glimpses this front office did. I get it, I get this selection. Does Perrion solve our IDL issues? No. We still have another spot and some depth next to him that needs answering. But I'm more than willing to say that this is Berry's first value pick attempt at delivering a long term solution along the IDL instead of the recent trend of bringing in 1 year stop-gaps. I'm excited about this pick, you should be excited about this pick. And I can't wait to see what the early results and word in camp is, I'd bet the phrase "real deal" gets tossed around a few times. " Got to see those glimpses this past weekend. Going to try working in a different color font for a little while. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Jet/sweep/ghost, whatever various coaches call it, it changes your run fits. As a result, when you get this slide from the linebackers, a lot of teams run to the opposite side. Why not? You're forcing a defense to win gaps, be disciplined in pursuit without over or under pursuing. It's a bitch to defend. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You'll see, a lot like what I posted before with Alex Wright, the Falcons using their tight ends in the running game getting cracks/seals on the strong side edge, then pulling the RT and TE behind it. This worked previously on this same drive for ATL, they just window dressed it a bit more with the motions in the running game pre-snap. The slight tilt technique that Perrion is playing usually invites a natural double team to the weakside. To the strong side, away from his natural leverage the position creates, the double then peel the 2nd level should be a bit easier for the Oline... in theory. ------------------------------------------------------ Like I said, in theory. Because of his ability to balance himself from athleticism (not that his pad level is great) Perrion is able to get himself leveraged correctly to the 'zone away' and, most importantly, NOT let the RG disengage cleanly or allow the center to control him let alone cross his face. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is where the recovery speed from our linebackers, namely JOK, really comes into play shutting this sort of play down, provided he's kept clean. It's an ecosystem that compliments and strengthens each other. The RG is still engaged trying to prevent PW from flowing laterally, so he isn't able to get ahead and move to the scraping LB's. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Final result, with JOK flying in like a god damn missile getting the TFL. It's great seeing our 2nd year LB in this type of 'see ball, get ball' in the running game. Because that's exactly why we drafted him. But he can't always be this effective unless the hogs in front of them are doing the work. JOK gets the TFL credit, but the foundation to the success of this defensive stop firmly rests on Perrion's shoulders. Without him? Who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2022 @Korsou Dawg The TFL you mentioned. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok so, he's a rookie. Still needs to keep his mind about him, but credit to Phillips for getting his rookie DL into the gap matching the correct call on the front. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- This looks a lot better. Can't help but notice that Perrion is again playing a slight tilt that favors shutting down the call to his side. Which is funny, given what happens on this play. For anybody reading and wondering, a tilt is old school. But the idea was to help more naturally create/invite double teams from the Oline. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Worked out really well, because this is a weakside zone. The biggest rule for a shade in an Over call facing weak inside zone like this - Pop quiz, anyone? Correct, you absolutely CAN NOT let the center cross your face and get control of you. Perrion does that and then some. Starts it out with some fantastic pad level too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ What this initial snap and contact looks like from wide. Perrion's wingspan is a real weapon when he uses it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The LG didn't get a clean release anyway from Winfrey's contact, but he gets him ripped down from the shoulder pad. Yeah, the dude is farmer's kid type of strong. Like, bailing hay and throwing the bails 15 feet up in the loft kind of strong. Notice he still hasn't let the center 'win' his assignment yet though. That's key. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is where I talk about the need to work on the consistent fundamentals, because this type of unbalanced play will eventually fuck you. But I also can't argue with results either. So far, Perrion has controlled his gap and eliminated the blocker for another. This run was shut down right here without him having to do anything else. But.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pdub wasn't good with just that. He manages to find his balance, bring his shoulders back around and square and keep flowing laterally. Oh, yeah, the center STILL hasn't managed to control his outside shoulder and turn him back inside. Got his shoulders AND eyes around to find the ball carrier. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wingspan Extension Strength STILL outside shoulder free of the center and getting contact on the RB. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Summed up in the yellow in the frame. I went nuts when I saw this play happen live. Because I honestly believe PW is capable of this type of high level play with more consistency in good time. Time to keep with professional conditioning, time with coaches, time in the film room and reps to make the fundamentals 2nd nature. He was our most effective, honestly our only real weapon, against the ATL zone schemes from our Dline. His ability to stay ahead of zone steps/blocks and disrupt gaps is a rare gift for this current roster. Perrion's ability to take his first step burst and convert it to power, plus his wingspan is something nobody else on this IDL has, nor will ever have. He is, without much question in my mind, our best IDL. And I really don't need to see much more beyond this opening drive to have enough evidence to support that belief. But since I love evidence.... Jordan Elliot handling the shade/1tech - Center crossing his face and "turning him" back inside. Creates a lovely B gap void for a RB ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tommy Togiai Subtle thing I noticed in this rep. - Tommy isn't playing a "true" 1shade 1i. He's actually playing more of a 2i here. This little "cheat" on spacing is to help make sure the center can't reach block him and cross his face. Welp.... -------------------------------------------------------------------- Didn't really fucking matter.... Outside of Myles and Clowney, one of those two whom likely isn't going to be on roster next year, the only other defensive lineman across the entire front who I would bet makes it onto other active rosters is Perrion Winfrey. The Browns currently field, IMHO, one of, if not THEE Worst IDL group in the entire NFL (aside from PW) - Jordan has lost any burst and was never a natural 1tech/shade/nose to begin with. - TT is a tweener who is incredibly limited in how you can effectively deploy him. I sound like a broken record, but I can't give you guys any more proof of how bad they are. Oh, wait... just thought of something. Togiai PFF current grade. https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/tommy-togiai/82501 Jordan Elliott's current grade. https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jordan-elliott/56734 Now I tend to take their services with a large grain of salt on the side, but their evaluators and myself are clearly seeing some similar play right now and arriving at a like minded conclusion. I don't need their help in my assessments, but the parallels seem to be rather consensus. Myles and Perrion are the duo who are the future of this defensive front. Everyone else is pretty much expendable after this year. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted October 4, 2022 Report Share Posted October 4, 2022 19 minutes ago, tiamat63 said: Myles and Perrion are the duo who are the future of this defensive front. Everyone else is pretty much expendable after this year. For the love of everything holy, I hope the Browns go balls to the wall this coming offseason on DLine, because Myles will be going into his seventh NFL season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 4, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2022 15 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said: For the love of everything holy, I hope the Browns go balls to the wall this coming offseason on DLine, because Myles will be going into his seventh NFL season. Pretty crazy how times just fly's, huh? I'd love to pick Joe Woods' brain, because if his idea is to run more of these flex type fronts - an interior that's plays with more of a 2i and a 3tech pair, "inviting" and creating the natural double teams, then I understand the philosophy and don't necessarily disagree with it either. But I need players who can disrupt their gaps and force those double teams to hold and not fly right to the 2nd level to our undersized linebackers. 3 of our current 4 aren't cut out for that role. Would also love getting some bigger bodies apart from JOK, because we've still yet to face a team that loves gap/down power, but we will when we face New England. And right now it's looking like it'll end up playing out a lot like last time for this defense. edit: Given the devalued nature of IDL, LB, RB and TE, unless there is an obviously multi-talented player at IDL in the 2nd round, I doubt the Browns go that direction. But there was a kid who absolutely jumped off the screen last year when I was watching Neil Ferrell, so I'm keeping him in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2022 Pretty damning stretch of film. On the Falcons 8th drive, their only TD of the 2nd half.... - They did not attempt a single pass - 10 plays, 10 runs - Of those 10 runs. * 1 to the called offenses strength * 9 (FUCKING NINE) to the weakside. In order. 1st and 10 - Weakside crack/seal toss 2nd and 4 - single back duo. We called it 22 blast. Started weak. 1st and 10 - ATL motions to a Pistol L, resetting the strength of the formation. Runs to, what was, previously the weakside B gap bubble. 1st and 10 - weakside zone (b gap bubble, noticing a trend yet?) away from the YY look strength 2nd and 1 - single back duo. Again, looks like how we called it - 22 blast strength. - 5 plays in - only 2 different type of running calls here. 1st and 10 - weakside zone. Guess which side has the natural B gap bubble? 2nd and 3 - weakside zone. Only little caveat here on this one. ATL ran to the weakside, but the Browns were essentially in an under front, as opposed to our more common over front calls (3 tech called to the weak side or away from the TE, depending on the coach) I mentioned this and wondered how long it would take for the Falcons to exploit this particular design... They ran same side that Perrion Winfrey was as the 3tech, and he was playing that tilt I posted in the above frames. As a result, when he faces a "zone away" call, his alignment presnap makes it difficult as shit to recover. 1st and 10 - ATL runs that same pistol L motion and resets the strength. So their upback is now, what once was, the weakside of the formation. Browns actually have a counter dialed up. They've walked JOK down over the weakside edge, basically as a 7tech. And they're closed to that side, with Isiah Thomas playing a 6i tech over the TE. Didn't really matter, pretty sure Togiai either thought this was a slant? or tried to backdoor the center on the zone step. Neither worked... Falcons with positive yardage. 2nd and 4 - simple weakside zone from the single back pistol 1st and goal - weak outside stretch for the TD. 4 different plays, half of the time from the same formation, all of them run calls, 90% to the weakside B gap bubble. I just.... WOW. I've never seen some shit like that on a professional field. It's the opposing coaching staff laughing in your face telling you that they know you have no way of stopping their running game either by design or by a lack of talent (the latter in this case mostly) but it's fucking embarrassing. The coaches I'm sure feel like shit, but Andrew Berry absolutely cannot be coming out of this unscathed. This organization lacks trench play in a way I haven't seen in a long while. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted October 5, 2022 Report Share Posted October 5, 2022 9 hours ago, tiamat63 said: it's fucking embarrassing. The coaches I'm sure feel like shit, but Andrew Berry absolutely cannot be coming out of this unscathed. Absolutely ! ^^ AB's additions of Tavan Bryan & Wino, don't come close to what Malik McDowell gave us with keeping his clothes on https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/defensive-tackle/all/ When teams continue run? This is a problem.. Emerson..10 snaps? https://brownswire.usatoday.com/lists/4-big-takeaways-from-snap-counts-in-browns-vs-falcons/ In this game, however, Takitaki played 40-of-52 defensive snaps as the Browns found themselves in three linebacker looks with frequency. This pushed Emerson’s snap count all the way down below 20% of defensive snaps, playing just 10 all game long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2022 1 hour ago, gumby73 said: Absolutely ! ^^ AB's additions of Tavan Bryan & Wino, don't come close to what Malik McDowell gave us with keeping his clothes on https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/defensive-tackle/all/ When teams continue run? This is a problem.. Emerson..10 snaps? https://brownswire.usatoday.com/lists/4-big-takeaways-from-snap-counts-in-browns-vs-falcons/ In this game, however, Takitaki played 40-of-52 defensive snaps as the Browns found themselves in three linebacker looks with frequency. This pushed Emerson’s snap count all the way down below 20% of defensive snaps, playing just 10 all game long. Taki playing more snaps is a consequence of the ATL offense showing more single back and two back looks under center on early downs. If you're not playing 3 LBs, you're going to be in your big nickel with Harrison as the 7th man, while Newsie and Ward are at corner. That isn't to take away from Emerson, who doesn't appear shy in being physical in the run game. I think it's just more of a design and philosophical preference for Joe Woods. Traditionally, forcing your nickel to get involved in run fits is a win for offenses, since the nickel player is a smaller DB. Emerson might get more looks there though in those early situations if he can hold up against the run though. I posted in the game thread that my observations about defenses running more 2 high is up across the league. And it's up by quite a bit this season... As a result, you have to sort of "force" defenses into more single high looks. I believe this will speak to the numbers of teams running more, especially under center, on early downs in order to force those + numbers towards the box. Only way you can avoid that as a defense is to either be stubborn, or have a kick ass defensive front that can handle limiting the run in lighter box count situations. This in turn circles back around to what I hinted at a few weeks ago - running more match quarters, cover 2, cover 6, might mean that the 'end all, be all' priority of DBs sort of gives a little ground to organizations renewing a bit of focus on drafting talented DL and LBs. It's just another phase of offensive and defensive life cycle play in an ever changing copy-cat league. But it also speaks to college designs sort of "falling up". Quarters was all the rage with Pat Narduzzi. It helped shut down these teams that loved to spread for power then work the calculated vertical shots. In turn, college offenses adapted to attack quarters either by targeting the safeties or by playing more "patient" in route selection and having to execute methodical drives. Sounds awfully familiar when you see talking heads refer to offenses like the Chiefs facing more 2 high designs to slow down their vertical passing game. It's all connected, 'Round and round we go. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted October 5, 2022 Report Share Posted October 5, 2022 15 hours ago, tiamat63 said: Pretty damning stretch of film. On the Falcons 8th drive, their only TD of the 2nd half.... - They did not attempt a single pass - 10 plays, 10 runs - Of those 10 runs. * 1 to the called offenses strength * 9 (FUCKING NINE) to the weakside. In order. I've never seen some shit like that on a professional field. It's the opposing coaching staff laughing in your face telling you that they know you have no way of stopping their running game either by design or by a lack of talent (the latter in this case mostly) but it's fucking embarrassing. The coaches I'm sure feel like shit, but Andrew Berry absolutely cannot be coming out of this unscathed. This organization lacks trench play in a way I haven't seen in a long while. Well done Tia! Even Pittsburgh had their way running the ball on the Browns in the 1st half. They had a halftime lead of 14-13 and it felt like they changed their game plan in the 2nd half. That said, I drank a lot of beer that night so I might be sloppy on the recall after halftime. I think their game plan was to set up play action passing with the run; but it was tough for them to turn down all the gimmes in the running game until the 2nd half. Lucky for us, Trubisky just wasn't very good at all throwing the ball. Even luckier for us, they didn't go back to the running game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2022 Oh, gee, another late game coverage bust for a big gain or TD. Looks like cover 3, smells like cover 3. Given that it's 2nd and 10 and ATL came out showing a strong fake, max pro and wanted to draw single high coverage. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Things the next frame affirms. - Johnny J is not a natural center fielder. I've said we have a redundancy of talent at safety, it's both a good and bad thing. Because nobody on this roster I trust playing the single high with any regularity, but nobody other than Harrison looks so incredibly out of place doing it. Sort of a 'meh' type of personnel situation. - Communication from our DBs to the corners might have cleaned up a bit, but there are still times where things can get away from them. Unfortunately for the Browns, they've all come at damn near the absolute worst times. The ATL game is just another example of that this season. What's worse, is that the coverage busts are two main categories. * Failed understanding of the call (vs the formation) * Incorrect match in MOD or zone replacement That's it. Nothing crazy. It's not like we're facing elite or complex passing offenses here. Although the Jets do have a bit of life in them, the rest of the teams we've faced have good skill players, but either lack the OL or QB to make it work consistently. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh and, Jacob Phillips is the worst LB in coverage that I've seen wear a Browns uniform in the last 10 years. - Newsome passes off the deep over to JJ3 like Newsome is playing cover 3. In this case, the MFS steps down to take the deep over. Newsome then carries hard upfield and in between the hashes in his zone replacement. It's how you defend anything resembling a yankee concept from this coverage. Now this is really starting to concern me because I've seen the Browns get smoked by these type of route combination before. 4th page, 17th post, bottom 1/3rd of the page. The big shot downfield for the TD the Eagles hit on us in the pre-season was a similar design off the same principles. Only our MFS played his replacement correctly on that one. I'm sure the call sign is still the exact same. So how is the backup S playing this correctly by Johnny J isn't? He's the only one playing this like it's cover 1. Granted, we didn't get the correct zone replace from one of our corners in that rep though. Something I would expect from a special teamer or camp cut. Not a guy who's wearing the green dot in the secondary. I've got 3 under, 3 deep. Aside from Phillips being drug out of his zone landmark by Mariota's movement, by 3 under at least understood where they were supposed to be. My 3 deep DB's on the other hand, I've got two CB's playing cover 3 and their MFS playing Man 1. How in the flippity fuck does this happen is beyond me at this point? I get things looked a bit tighter last week and this week, which was good. That was until the lights are the brightest, then shit went to hell real quick. I guess on the bright side, it isn't occurring half dozen times a game, so there is something to be said for that. But this secondary is going to have to play damn near perfect with the way the front 7 is both beaten up and depleted. I have questions for Coach Woods. Unfortunately I feel like I already know the answers and they're not one's I wanted to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unsympathetic Posted October 7, 2022 Report Share Posted October 7, 2022 This is what happens when you keep trading picks for players.. QB is one thing, "everyone" is problems. Sure, they won a SB so if that's the goal, great, but in the very next year they're not going to make the playoffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2022 If only somebody, ANYBODY could have seen this one a comin'.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted October 10, 2022 Report Share Posted October 10, 2022 3 hours ago, tiamat63 said: If only somebody, ANYBODY could have seen this one a comin'.... I'm trying to rack my brain in an attempt to remember what posters on here over and over posted their concern for the DTackle position on this team, but I'm coming up blank. 😉 My three biggest draft/free agency positions on this team going into last year's offseason is the three biggest draft/free agency wants for this coming offseason: DE, DT and WR. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted October 11, 2022 Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 On 10/2/2022 at 5:35 PM, tiamat63 said: Let's go over some early results from today. On that first ATL drive, I saw something awfully familiar that I was worried about - Alex Wright. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Z gets the seal on the edge vs Wright for a couple reasons. - He's high out of his stance - Unbalanced - Working upfield from his first step too fast - Lack of awareness on the reduced split and what might come his way. This one generally speaks to football IQ which, you need A LOT of snaps to start to develop. But there's also a problem with that, because this is a pretty fundamental toss and pull call. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Coaches call it gap stealing, some also call it gap "splitting" since you give the RB an additional read point and cut option. Either way, this type of play gives the RG and LG an easy release to the 2nd level. Your LB's don't stand a chance when they have 300lb bodies on them that fast. The ATL line here does a good job picking off the lead pursuit in Taki and Phillips. And because cut blocking is now illegal, getting the a big body to the edge is like stealing candy. No DB's can go low on the big guys now. I'll check back at the end of the year, but I'd be willing to bet running designs based on the pulling game to the perimeter shoot up quite a bit by the end of this season. Not that getting blockers on smaller CB's wasn't an idea to begin with, but now you've given almost no way for those CB's to take on lineman without a cut. Either way, in this following frame, Wright came out so high and fast in his stance, Drake London really didn't take much to seal him inside and continue washing him down the line. He's so terribly out of balance, he never had a chance to recover. And this is where height works against you if you don't play with consistently low pad level. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Final shot with the open lanes to the edge. Only real way to shut this down is get ahead of it and turn it back inside to pursuit. But then you need your 1tech, Togiai, to be able to crash onto the call carrier. The center crosses Tommy's face, which you can't allow when you're playing that 1tech, and turns his shoulders back inside to prevent him from flowing down the line and effecting the play. This first play is, in a nutshell, the state of the Browns Defensive Line. Especially without Myles or Clowney. It's a bottom 5 group at best. You have a nose who isn't a starter, a 3tech in Jordan Elliot who is quality depth and little else. A rookie edge in Alex Wright who isn't ready for this sort of role, and might never be ready. Then you have Rochelle (spell check) who is a nice story and fights hard, but would be a camp casualty on a lot of teams. This is why I'm passionate about creating work that holds up over time. Because I can go back to reference that work and those notes, and see how things string out beyond the vacuum of that play. So if you're wondering why I said "looked familiar".... Please refer to the 28th-ish post in this thread linked below from my breakdown of Alex Wright. A similar design on the seal and pull to his side that he lost BAD on vs Georgia. For reference, that's a Georgia team who has bodies that will play in the NFL. Specifically why I went looking for that game. ATL likely saw this, especially since Alex a rookie. I have no doubt they have assistants who go back this far to dig on tape on how to attack rookie players beyond the few games of NFL work he's had. Offenses will continue to attack Alex Wrights side until he punishes them for doing so. And this defense has yet another crack in the fortress wall to account for. (28th post, 3rd page) Look at the pad heights up front; and see how fast they get too high. #93 Tommy Togiai looks like he is the least of all evils but he's only 6'2". I'm happy to say, I rarely ever have to complain about Myles Garrett's pad height coming off the ball. For some reason, the bad heights aren't exclusive to coming off the ball up front. The tackling is often way too high. I can't even tell you how many times I see Delpit up around the shoulders when he's trying to tackle someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2022 @Flugel Alex Wrights high and unbalanced, you'll see me mention that in my post. It's how he played at Georgia and it hasn't had time to be coached out of him yet. Double T is 6'1 so that helps, but Larry Johnson is one of the best in the business. So fundamental play from him isn't my concern, just his overall ability vs NFL talent. Jordan Elliots isn't terrible, I get he's flowing to play side zone, so long as he gets lower on contact, I'm good with it. Rochelle is a 7th round camp bubble who has surprisingly stuck around, I'm not expecting much from him on the backside of the play. Would it have been nice if he stayed low, crashed and found a way to track down? Yeah, but he isn't prime Khalil Mack either. Pads are a the biggest problem with the rookies. I have an expectation of that. But even if Jordan Elliot played low(er), he'd still lose. I suspect the added weight, 15-20lbs, that the coaching staff spoke of hasn't been sitting well with him. What burst he had looks all but gone and his pad level might reflect carrying the added weight. The Billy Winn effect. We need an infusion of talent. Nothing less with will fix this situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unsympathetic Posted October 12, 2022 Report Share Posted October 12, 2022 Browns sign NT Tyeler Davison and his 6'2 305# frame to PS. He was cut by Falcons in a cap dump before this season. Davison radar chart // RAS Now do Linval Joseph, which he should have done at the start.. Take the chance that his 330# and otherworldly athleticism hasn't lost a step.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 12, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2022 24 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said: Browns sign NT Tyeler Davison and his 6'2 305# frame to PS. He was cut by Falcons in a cap dump before this season. Davison radar chart // RAS Now do Linval Joseph, which he should have done at the start.. Take the chance that his 330# and otherworldly athleticism hasn't lost a step.. It has, but that doesn't mean he still wouldn't be more effective than what we currently have. Davison would replace Togiai, Linval would take Jordan's spot. At that point, somebody has to be cut around the roster if you're to keep 5 IDL. This is still a band-aid solution to this season which now requires a look in the mirror of how the front office could so terribly devalue the position group. And a long-term amendment to the team building philosophy and talent evaluation placed upon that position. But at least this is an admission they fucked up. Like I said, if the NFL is going to cycle back around to 2 high defenses, you need to place focus on the Dline. The NFL arms race that was placing such dire importance on DB's, has quickly flipped to the front 7 with the advent of 2 high. Which, I'd like to think was inadvertently discovered by Joe Woods against the Chiefs in the divisional round. Teams took notice of the lack of talent in the secondary, but the more methodical pace KC had to show in order to score. Same same for week 1 last season. The numbers have only gone up since then against similarly built rosters - BUF, LAC and CIN being the biggies. It's no coincidence the looks the Bengals have struggled against without getting their ground game working. I've noticed the Chiefs run/pass ratio this year has moved by almost 4 percentage points as well. KC is running more into light box counts, as they should. The response isn't to add more weapons, it's to return to the running game as more than an afterthought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korsou Dawg Posted October 12, 2022 Report Share Posted October 12, 2022 On 10/10/2022 at 3:27 PM, tiamat63 said: If only somebody, ANYBODY could have seen this one a comin'.... Makes little sense to keep studying tape of our IDL, when they are just THAT bad. Remember you also have been watching Pocic, and were moderately positive. Did see a play against the Bolts were a defender flew by him down the middle, resulting in a big loss. Have you come across that play perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted October 12, 2022 Report Share Posted October 12, 2022 @tiamat63 in your opinion.. Has Martin Emerson shown enough to keep ahead of Greedy Williams if/when Greedy returns? Remember when we watched a browns rookie named Buster Skrine get picked on? Martin 'buster 2.0' Emerson has appeared.. Berry drafting Martin Emerson, is looking promising lacking his 40 speed.. but he's shown sticking on guys like Elmer's glue thanks, when ya can get to it... gone to work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 12, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2022 6 minutes ago, Korsou Dawg said: Makes little sense to keep studying tape of our IDL, when they are just THAT bad. Remember you also have been watching Pocic, and were moderately positive. Did see a play against the Bolts were a defender flew by him down the middle, resulting in a big loss. Have you come across that play perhaps? - you're right, and as of this past outing, I've turned my attention away from the IDL themselves. Problem with that is, when I watch the linebackers play and their alignments, the influence of a piss poor IDL is noticeable in their play even pre snap. So it's difficult to just put an eye patch, so to speak, over that position group when watching the defense. I'll post an example later. - and yes, I do plan on focusing on Pocic and the OT situation dealing with Khalil Mack's edge rush. First thing I did was chart plays for the LAC offense because I wanted to see how their opening script was. Finished that up last night, ill move onto the new pursuits this afternoon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 12, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2022 18 minutes ago, gumby73 said: @tiamat63 in your opinion.. Has Martin Emerson shown enough to keep ahead of Greedy Williams if/when Greedy returns? Remember when we watched a browns rookie named Buster Skrine get picked on? Martin 'buster 2.0' Emerson has appeared.. Berry drafting Martin Emerson, is looking promising lacking his 40 speed.. but he's shown sticking on guys like Elmer's glue thanks, when ya can get to it... gone to work Good question. I suppose it depends on how fast the coaching staff feels greedy can be up to game speed. Personally? I feel like Martin should stay on the field. For two big reasons. - He's picked up his game the last few weeks. I don't see him like he was week 1 and 2, opening his hips so damn early and leaving himself vulnerable. Being a bit more patient in his phase and starting to understand he has a top tier wingspan which is a weapon to use. So far, we've picked back to back rookie corners that have shown serious promise early in their careers. What completions Em has given up, he does a good job limiting YAC damage and getting people to the ground. - Physical play as it relates to injury. No secret, Greedy has an extensive injury history. And it sucks because he was starting to come into his own. Until this front 7 is fixed, these DBs are going to be under fire in run fits at every level. And we've seen some early play from Denzel showing that he wants no part in getting physical at the line when it's critical that he does so. I can't blame him, dude is about 5'11 and a feather under 190lbs. That's literally like me being asked to play contain on a gap exchange in the NFL. I mean, I'll do it, but it's gonna hurt. Anywho, because of said injury history, can I trust that Greedy will still attack ball carriers and get physical in the running game without shying away for fear of further risk to his body? Doesn't take much, (Eric Wright) for offenses to say we're going to test the manhood of your corners on our perimeter running game. Probably why I hold antoine Winfield in such high esteem. There was a story about Steven Jackson telling his lead to pick off Winfield and he'd take his chances with the safeties should they both clear the line clean. That's high praise from a RB. Long and short, rookie has given me too much to like so far for me to supplant him with an injury prone CB who would be working to knock rust off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2022 Washington v Chi-Town tonight at 8:15. Going to relax and watch some of the game and see how my wager plays out. Remember, we have a Browns Board discord. Should anyone want to join in on the football talk regardless of who's playing. https://discord.gg/bAGzcfWn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2022 @Ghoolie Always Ghoolie I'll answer your question in my thread to avoid the mess that is the gameday thread. Re: DePodesta. You and I have a mutual sort of 'disdain' for him, though I suspect mine might be for different reasons. Analytics are an interesting type of monster. I use PFF for an example and the word 'dogma', because as an enterprise they use a good amount of proprietary metrics to determine their grades. A method I'm not privy to myself, unfortunately. I always find I can easier deconstruct and therefore criticize something when I'm heavily versed in it. The method and the resulting grade is sort of sacred to them. And this is where I circle back around to the word dogma because, as Stefanski said "we live and die by the analytics". It was a slight deflection of a question, or more accurately, it was an answer that basically boils down to circular logic. The analytic driven crowd of evaluation has their place in sports. I'm sorry to tell you, that even means football. But like any religious sect, the circular logic is used when "outside" forces of pragmatic observance question said religion (I.E. analytics) Example: God is always good and right. Why? Because God says so. (not to get into religious debate here, just an example) I've said it on this board multiple times, I don't adhere to any one philosophy in my evaluation of draft prospects, current NFL players or coaches. Only because the old school " hE's JuSt A fOOtBall PlaYer" crowd ends up with Tim Tebow, meanwhile the "Project A runs at a 17 degree angle at 20.8MPH, which is 8% faster than the corresponding apple Iphone x19", or as shorten by saying, a bunch of fucking nerds who have never played a down of football in their lives. Analytics and stat nerds have a huge hand in crafting offensive and defensive game plans. I like to know play call strategy of my opponents on downs, distances, personnel groupings, side of the field, hash marks, what they had for dinner, mercury in retrograde, whose birthday it is, yada yada. ANY bit of information I can get is a potential tool to help craft the arsenal in this case. But I'm talking apples to apples. NFL data and performance compared to other NFL teams and players. Where I find grading and models lacking, such as PFF, is in their collegiate football to NFL projections. Most notably the draft. I've found when I do my own grades for NFL players, their services and mine don't always differ all that much. We might have some tiffs here or there, but I appreciate the work they do. Because the landscape of NFL grading is a bit more static in comparison to college football. I spoke with a PFF data scientist about this sort of thing during the 2019 season and how Bakers struggles aren't quite the "chicken or the egg" they made it to be. Where we often WILDLY differ is looking at college prospects. At the height of the Browns "money ball" movement under Sashi Brown, the Browns took Corey Coleman and Emmanual Ogbah (I'm not going back to spell check those names) in 2016. - Corey Coleman was PFF's #1 rated receiver. You are welcomed to use the search function and to go back to find my evaluation of him. I was not kind in the least. - Ogbah was PFF's #1 rated pass rusher at the top of the 2nd round. You are also welcome to use the search function and to find my thoughts on him. I was a bit more gentle, but not happy. And then it hit me, that's when I had my epiphany. Going back to my conversation with the PFF "data scientist". These guys, like I said above, are fucking nerds. And sure, they're smart, but almost all of them have never played a meaningful down of football. So how they're taught to grade in a vacuum of the NFL is MUCH easier than actually taking a raw prospect and 'parsing him out' so to speak. Grades for WR's like - Footwork - Route quality - Hand placement - Offensive structure - Sight adjustments/route adjustments - Body positioning They are susceptible to a much more "huh?" type of grade from the guys who have flat out never taken a snap before on the field. If I were to talk about the merits of Baylor's offense as it related to Corey Coleman's performance and therefore draft stock, I doubt I would have gotten anything back worth hearing from the PFF staff I had spoken with. So their grading bias, their model, doesn't account for things they simply just don't know. This is why you need people in those circles who have actually put on a fucking helmet before. Otherwise you're in a religious sect that, as I said at the start of this, uses your own hand-crafted dogma, to circular logic your way back around to their doctrine of faith that can't be questioned - the "analytics". Or the time old question, is math discovered or invented? How do I finally tie this into Depodesta? We know he is a believer in money ball. I also know he has NEVER taken a single football snap, which Andrew Berry actually has. So I have to ask myself, was the nightmare that became the Browns IDL all unforeseen or intentionally neglected? - If Unforeseen - What quality type of professional organization was so blind to what my amateur eyes weren't? I'm not making six figures to do this. And worse, I made money betting against the Browns knowing full well what was coming. - If intentionally neglected, what poorly designed system lead them to this conclusion? Did we believe we could put warm bodies over the ball and somehow NOT suffer for it? Where was the "traditional" scouting voices on that getting in DePO's ear then? Was it Deshaun's arrival that had them look at the IOL and go "we must protect our prize!!!" In which case, I can't absolve the IDL sin then. Because it doesn't take much to pick your head up and go, "Oh yeah, we can't forget them either" Because this 2nd scenario is an admission that the front office understands the importance of building inside to out along your trenches. 3rd, I suppose - Incompetence. What level of group think somehow convinced these guys that Tommy Togiai and Jordan Elliot would be able to hold the fort down? Did they not believe that protecting the LB's and secondary was a necessity? And finally, is there room or even ability for nuance and amendments to the analytical process of personnel evaluation both draft and on current roster? Can we improve the team building philosophy now that we're forced to confront evidence that it doesn't work? Or are we going back to "God is right because god says so ANALYTICS RAWR" ?!? I once studied six sigma and one of the lines was "continuous self improvement". Which is not possible without introspection. So it begs the question, can Berry and Depo come out and take some deserved criticism and responsibility for the shortcomings of this team, or will they throw Joe Woods under the bus? My heart says the latter, but for 3 different reasons. Either the 1st reason is they want to preserve their own heads and jobs. The 2nd reason is the lack the ability to say "We were wrong, we need to analyze our process and do better". The latter almost being an intimate admission which is a tell of maturity both professional and personal level. The 3rd reason is most frightening - they actually believe the roster they've constructed is great and that the coaches are the problem. And if any of those are true, can I submit my resume' to them while I work from home? I have a ton of great ideas to help right the ship and get Browns fans what they deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korsou Dawg Posted October 18, 2022 Report Share Posted October 18, 2022 @tiamat63 I admitted my lack of football literacy, and the extenuating cultural background. When you say 3tech, my mind goes: "I thought 2 techs was the max before getting ejected." I have googled the terms I am unfamiliar with, and found explanations on all sorts of sites, but no definitive sources of interest. Anything you could recommend in terms of sites or youtube channels to learn some of the finer points of formations, schemes and such? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted October 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2022 1 minute ago, Korsou Dawg said: @tiamat63 I admitted my lack of football literacy, and the extenuating cultural background. When you say 3tech, my mind goes: "I thought 2 techs was the max before getting ejected." I have googled the terms I am unfamiliar with, and found explanations on all sorts of sites, but no definitive sources of interest. Anything you could recommend in terms of sites or youtube channels to learn some of the finer points of formations, schemes and such? The bolded part had me DYING 🤣 Can I recommend a channel? Not really off the top of my head.,I'm not familiar with those channels that go over teaching the basics as, not trying to sound like a braggard here, never really needed to watch such things being that I grew up having them coached into me. I suppose I can run a quick little search for you... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgjg-Jfrndo Try that for starters. However, I'll give you a bit of cryptic foreshadowing here now... if you're wanting a dedicated youtube channel that will give you condensed, yet highly detailed and easily digestible breakdowns the X's and O's of football concepts that is dedicated to The Browns, then stayed tuned because my next thread will be to announce the channel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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