The 2023 season film studies. Thread of questions and answers.

[Orion]

6 hours ago, Flugel said:

Someone last year, it might have been you or someone else, made a point I haven't forgotten.  The point was Paul Depodesta isn't interested in short passes - he wants a vertical game. 

Well, what I said was that DePo said that he wasn't interested in 4 yard runs.  He wanted 13 yard passes.  Which, I guess is relatively vertacle.  

Callahan's got his hands full with our Tackles.

[Flugel]

57 minutes ago, Orion said:

Well, what I said was that DePo said that he wasn't interested in 4 yard runs.  He wanted 13 yard passes.  Which, I guess is relatively vertacle.  

Callahan's got his hands full with our Tackles.

Ok, that sounds right.  Thanks for clarifying that.  I think Front Office DePo wants to be another Al Davis without the ideal pass protection on the edges...

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

Ok, that sounds right.  Thanks for clarifying that.  I think Front Office DePo wants to be another Al Davis without the ideal pass protection on the edges...

The aspirations are fine by me so long as you can adapt to the personnel you have and the circumstances. 
 

This was not a chunk yard type game considering their strengths (Outside pass rushers)and our new RT.  The gameplan was get downhill and get after the QB. 
 

Likewise, last year we have wind and ice and we are throwing the ball against the Saints. 

And countless times throughout the history of this regime…if I’m in dogfight I don’t want my go to guy being Anthony Schwartz or Harrison Bryant.  I’d like to see our playcaller bludgeon another team with our playmakers.

 

[tiamat63]

 There are 3 main components to the Browns offense and the lack of production. 

1- Pass pro on the edges.  Like I said, Jed is playing like one of the worst in the NFL.  He positive grade count when I finished his snaps was almost 1:4.   It's just not sustainable.     Dawand had his struggles against Watt, that was a given.  But, just like his time at tOSU, he's struggling with twitch off the edge.   Guys like Hubbard, Hendrickson, Clowney, Autry... etc etc. Bigger rushers who try to use power won't work.    Jed is the opposite, his ability to anchor against a bull rush is piss poor. 

 

2- Route combinations.  It's clear the staff watched the Niners - Steelers game week one.  But then they basically constructed a passing plan out of it that is almost like watching a local AC/DC cover band.   Sure, the music is pretty simple and fun, but it's easy to fuck up trying to imitate the original.   There are a few designs I was showing Flugs that San Fran did.  Stacking receivers and running a two man game like hitch/po, dig/pivot, seam/follow.  Stuff to attack the cover 4 and cover 2 structures by PIT over the middle of the field.    Generally routes that also take a touch less time to develop.   

 The coaching staff elected to target the perimeter instead.  Not that it's a bad idea, it isn't.  Cover 4 and cover 3 means you can attack corners that are high and off.   Cover 2 means you can target those cloud corners read-throw off them.   But the down side to throwing outside is it generally requires more time.  That's where you want to refer back to #1 - pass pro.  Routes to the outside can't be connected on when the QB is getting pushed off platform.   This is where the coaches elected to go - to the outside.  And it cost this team quite a bit.  Because avoiding the middle for the sake of not wanting traffic means your throws have to be on point to the numbers, down field and beyond. 

 

3 - Throw timing, ball placement in correlation to WR routes.     I've used the phrase 'bad math' before.  Where a QB starts and keeps their eyes in places they have no business being.  If I can offer Browns fans any glimmer of hope about Watson, his football I.Q. doesn't appear diminished.  Because he regularly started the pre and post snap read with his eyes in the right places.  Even that first play, the pick 6, was the right read and throw per the matchup.   The sail to Moore that was broken up - same same. The good math is there, step 1 is looking alright.  Now steps 2 and 3 need serious refinement, timing and route chemistry.    Even the back shoulder and perimeter throws to Coop, that was the coaches trying to go at the Steelers corners just like Purdy and Auiyuk did. 

 What they called makes sense, to an extent.  But like the saying goes, you have to play the game.  We didn't execute the pass pro, ball placement was off and routes weren't crisp.  

 

 

 I've been kicking this around, but I can't help but feel this offense is trying to run before it walks.   We're trying to get a bit too fancy in the running game, we're trying to push the ball down field in the passing game with rhythm where we aren't ready from a protection and chemistry point yet.  

 They can get there, but the growing pains are even worse than I expected.  There is still a lot that needs to be done.   Sadly, we now have to do it with a bottom 5 LT, losing a good RT, and losing the heart and soul of your offense in Chubb.     As the saying goes, 'Smooth seas don't make good sailors'.  

 

 I have a busy weekend ahead, but I'll do all I can to try and get more of what I'm saying, breakdown wise, on here tonight and tomorrow. 

 

✌️

 

Edit might turn this into a betting thread too. 

 

Looking at Airforce -6 and NC State -7.5 tonight. 

[Unsympathetic]

Our next first-round pick is 2025. Wills' last year under contract is 2024.

[Orion]

3 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

The aspirations are fine by me so long as you can adapt to the personnel you have and the circumstances. 
Agree 100%.  Your current personnel dictates what you can do well.  Smashing the square peg into the round hole comes out looking shitty.  Don Shula is the example.  With Larry Csonka, Jim Kick and Mercury Morris he beat you to death with the run.  With Dan Marino, Mark Duper and Mark Clayton he passed you into oblivion.

 
Likewise, last year we have wind and ice and we are throwing the ball against the Saints. 

The Saints game pissed me off to no end.  Watson threw 3 TD passes that were dropped or slipped on the field and not caught.  The Saints figured that they had to stop the run in that kind of weather...and they sold out to do that...and pretty much DID stop us from running them into the ground.  The problem was, we STUNK against the run...and we couldn't stop them or their pathetic wild-cat QB.  

[SdBacker80]

16 minutes ago, Orion said:

The Saints game pissed me off to no end.  Watson threw 3 TD passes that were dropped or slipped on the field and not caught.  The Saints figured that they had to stop the run in that kind of weather...and they sold out to do that...and pretty much DID stop us from running them into the ground.  The problem was, we STUNK against the run...and we couldn't stop them or their pathetic wild-cat QB.  

Can he relinquish play-calling duties?  Some of us were excited for Musgrove (me meh) and let’s get Van Pelt off his @ss give him the reins.  Let’s see if Kevin can be a HC.  Simplify things.  If you can’t do two things why not try just one thing. 

[Flugel]

39 minutes ago, Orion said:

The Saints game pissed me off to no end.  Watson threw 3 TD passes that were dropped or slipped on the field and not caught.  The Saints figured that they had to stop the run in that kind of weather...and they sold out to do that...and pretty much DID stop us from running them into the ground.  The problem was, we STUNK against the run...and we couldn't stop them or their pathetic wild-cat QB.  

Exactly!  I remember agreeing whole-heartedly with you on that last year.

Look what happened when we changed who was in charge of the Defense.  Needed to happen just like addressing the personnel on the defense to be far more compatible with the situational football necessary.  Long story short, it worked...

The ONLY time our OC Alex Van Pelt was given control of the offense - the Browns scored 48 points in a playoff game at Pittsburgh.  I'm not saying he is the answer just yet; but he was clearly enough of an upgrade to show me we need something better than who is currently orchestrating the offense today.  

It's frustrating watching the incompetence repeat itself.  People are now saying "Watson isn't the player he was in Houston."  I'm not so sure the aim of that comment is directed at Watson as much as it is toward the Browns Offensive Coaching staff.  Rightfully so!  

While Pickett was horrible and the browns kept him pressured upfront all night - they at least found 1 vulnerability at the back end they could exploit.  It was the post pattern/intermediate slant that only needed 1 missed tackle in our 3rd tier of defense for the 1 shining 7 point moment necessary from their passing game to be enough to help them win.  The Browns' passing game never even give us a sniff something like that was possible from them.

 

[Flugel]

17 hours ago, Orion said:

Callahan's got his hands full with our Tackles.

I think the best solution for all that unmotivated mystery meat on the edges of Cleveland's pass pro is a blow torch that lights all fannies in need...   

 

[Dutch Oven]

11 hours ago, Flugel said:

Exactly!  I remember agreeing whole-heartedly with you on that last year.

Look what happened when we changed who was in charge of the Defense.  Needed to happen just like addressing the personnel on the defense to be far more compatible with the situational football necessary.  Long story short, it worked...

The ONLY time our OC Alex Van Pelt was given control of the offense - the Browns scored 48 points in a playoff game at Pittsburgh.  I'm not saying he is the answer just yet; but he was clearly enough of an upgrade to show me we need something better than who is currently orchestrating the offense today.  

It's frustrating watching the incompetence repeat itself.  People are now saying "Watson isn't the player he was in Houston."  I'm not so sure the aim of that comment is directed at Watson as much as it is toward the Browns Offensive Coaching staff.  Rightfully so!  

While I would love to see Van Pelt get the OC duties and let Stefanski just be the HC, I don't see it happening. He knows his job is on the line, and I doubt in his mind (or about anyone's mind who finds themselves in that position) that the way to fix that is to do less. 

I think some of Watson's issues are an offense that isn't a great fit, but according to many he's missing easy throws and reads that he made with ease in Houston. I think the majority of his problems are psychological. Roethlisberger came back and thrived, probably due to him being a sociopath, but this has gotten into Watson's head so deep. I'm not of the mindset that he was set-up, so this is his doing, but.... this current disaster-in-waiting is also the Browns fault, its not like they didn't know what they were doing, but when the QB they had that was the #1 overall pick turned out to be 'eh', they got desperate.

I think this situation can and will get worse. He can't deal with being the NFL's villain, being hated everywhere isn't something most players can thrive off of. 

So why do I think this can and will get worse? Because he hasn't been really booed at home... yet.

[Orion]

On 9/22/2023 at 5:32 PM, tiamat63 said:

Like I said, Jed is playing like one of the worst in the NFL.

Early on you were a backer of his....back when I was saying that it appeared that he had it written in his contract that he need only play football for three and a half seconds per snap.  So, it saddens me that you're now saying that he's playing lousy...because I know that you don't want to have to say that...so he must really be playing badly.

That said, we've got one more draft to come with no 1st round pick....and that's pretty much where starting LT's come from.  And if our Tackles are going to continue to struggle (although there's hope that the rookie playing RT can improve during the year) then we quite possibly will have a new GM & HC drafting the new LT.

As some of us have learned over the last 24 years of our reincarnation, you cannot just throw any 5 fat-asses on the OL and be successful.  They're not a dime a dozen.  They indirectly control how good your millions of dollars 'skill position' players can be.  You can't pass without protection and you can't run without holes.

If the Tackle play doesn't improve, this could be another long and painful season.  And this week's opponent already has 7 sacks while next week's opponent has 8 right now.  I mean, what can ya do?  Put a blocking TE on each side of the line to help each Tackle and go empty backfield when you have to pass?   

 

[tiamat63]

9 hours ago, Orion said:

Early on you were a backer of his....back when I was saying that it appeared that he had it written in his contract that he need only play football for three and a half seconds per snap.  So, it saddens me that you're now saying that he's playing lousy...because I know that you don't want to have to say that...so he must really be playing badly.

That said, we've got one more draft to come with no 1st round pick....and that's pretty much where starting LT's come from.  And if our Tackles are going to continue to struggle (although there's hope that the rookie playing RT can improve during the year) then we quite possibly will have a new GM & HC drafting the new LT.

As some of us have learned over the last 24 years of our reincarnation, you cannot just throw any 5 fat-asses on the OL and be successful.  They're not a dime a dozen.  They indirectly control how good your millions of dollars 'skill position' players can be.  You can't pass without protection and you can't run without holes.

If the Tackle play doesn't improve, this could be another long and painful season.  And this week's opponent already has 7 sacks while next week's opponent has 8 right now.  I mean, what can ya do?  Put a blocking TE on each side of the line to help each Tackle and go empty backfield when you have to pass?   

 

 

 I'd hardly say I was a Jed 'backer'.    I'm realistic about play - his wasn't elite, it wasn't even great to above average... it was average.   And the NFL average time on snap to throw is 2.72 seconds, so Wills blocking for 3.5 is overkill.     I'm being cheeky and a bit literal, but you get my point.

 Either way, I don't *want* to have to say any of the Browns players are doing poorly;  We have a bottom 5 LT situation and it's actively hurting this team.   Even if Jed was playing average, maybe even slightly above average, that is all our OT situation needs to be and I wouldn't be so critical.    But that's the reality of the situation. 

 It's well known I have a love/hate relationship with PFF, but their line grades are pretty solid.   Had to look them up to see if I was the only one giving Jed the bad marks.  Turns out, they see it too.

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jedrick-wills/58467

 

 I don't have answers on how we move forward addressing the position short of available free agents or trade.   

 I've also floated out moving Jed back to the right side, but doing so in-season can also mean absolute disaster.  Because we can't just pick up and move Dawand to the left in return.  

 

 

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

I'd hardly say I was a Jed 'backer'.    I'm realistic about play - his wasn't elite, it wasn't even great to above average... it was average.   And the NFL average time on snap to throw is 2.72 seconds, so Wills blocking for 3.5 is overkill.     I'm being cheeky and a bit literal, but you get my point

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jedrick-wills/58467

Thank you.

The "Jed only blocks for 3.5 seconds" Orion posts always made me chuckle. I always wondered how long he thought pass plays took to develop. 😏

But we get your point, Orion. He needs replaced. 

[Orion]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

The "Jed only blocks for 3.5 seconds" Orion posts always made me chuckle. I always wondered how long he thought pass plays took to develop. 😏

But we get your point, Orion. He needs replaced. 

God forbid the QB moves around in the backfield to buy more time.  According to Jed's contract, the QB is on his own at that point. 

[nickers]

43 minutes ago, Orion said:

God forbid the QB moves around in the backfield to buy more time.  According to Jed's contract, the QB is on his own at that point. 

Jed and James need to quit playing "Ole"

[tiamat63]

Dagger. 

I asked for efficiency, I got it.  

Asked for a slow build to chemistry, I got it. 

Watsons ball placement slowly rounding back into form. 

27/33

289

8.8

2

0

3-26

123.4.

All of that vs a quality defense.

Eyes starting in the right places.  

Aggressive call late to Coop to bury TEN, showing trust in your QB to deliver late.

 

Every thing I asked for today, I saw. 

 

[tiamat63]

Oh, right, bets. 

 

Took

- GB ML

- Watson O 20.5 comp 

- Raiders -2.5      

Looking ahead to Birds -4.5 v Bucs

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Dagger. 

I asked for efficiency, I got it.  

Asked for a slow build to chemistry, I got it. 

Watsons ball placement slowly rounding back into form. 

27/33

289

8.8

2

0

3-26

123.4.

All of that vs a quality defense.

Eyes starting in the right places.  

Aggressive call late to Coop to bury TEN, showing trust in your QB to deliver late.

 

Every thing I asked for today, I saw. 

 

You should have asked for Selena Gomez doing a strip tease in your bedroom, silly goose. 

[tiamat63]

6 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

You should have asked for Selena Gomez doing a strip tease in your bedroom, silly goose. 

 

Jessica Alba sort of guy, myself. 

[Dutch Oven]

2 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 

Jessica Alba sort of guy, myself. 

Oh dear lord, I would not have a problem with that at all.

But she's gotta be like what... 45 or 50 now?

[mjp28]

Oh you nasty guys and your imaginary hot girls.      

• ( Maybe I  could do better ?  )

[Unsympathetic]

Jessica Alba, 42, left the church when she played a role of a woman with gonorrhea of the throat.. and people she thought were her friend stopped simply because of a role she played.  Side note: There was a paper showing that gargling with listerine significantly reduces the chance of catching that. The more you know.  

She also married a guy named Cash.

[tiamat63]

2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Oh dear lord, I would not have a problem with that at all.

But she's gotta be like what... 45 or 50 now?

 

What's odd, is I don't remember anyone asking you a god damn thing about dropping age numbers here 😂

4 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

There was a paper showing that gargling with listerine significantly reduces the chance of catching that. The more you know.  

 

 

"Knowing is half the battle."

- G.I. Joe

     -  Michael Scott

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, tiamat63 said:

What's odd, is I don't remember anyone asking you a god damn thing about dropping age numbers here 😂

I looked it up, she's only like 42. 

I'm sure she's still lovely in all the right ways. 

[mjp28]

6 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I looked it up, she's only like 42. 

I'm sure she's still lovely in all the right ways. 

Maybe she had a beautiful mother ?   Eh ?   Or she just was a hot babe and took good care of herself ?    

[mjp28]

~    Oh BTW this is the thread of ....  The 2023 season film studies. Thread of questions and answers. ..... For Your Information  

Here to answer your questions.   I guess ( within reason of course).

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, mjp28 said:

Maybe she had a beautiful mother ?   Eh ?   Or she just was a hot babe and took good care of herself ?    

I'm not sure what happened to her, for some reason I feel like she kind of did a Phoebe Cates and walked away from her acting career? 

[mjp28]

3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I looked it up, she's only like 42. 

I'm sure she's still lovely in all the right ways. 

A lot of babies are nice at 42.  Some more than others. 

She's older than 42 for example. Taken a few years ago. (below) 

[Flugel]

12 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Oh dear lord, I would not have a problem with that at all.

But she's gotta be like what... 45 or 50 now?

I kind of like moms all of a sudden...

[Flugel]

8 hours ago, mjp28 said:

A lot of babies are nice at 42.  Some more than others. 

She's older than 42 for example. Taken a few years ago. (below) 

It was sad to hear she died earlier this year on February 15th at 82 years of age.  Raquel Welch was beautiful back in the day.