The 2023 season film studies. Thread of questions and answers.

[Unsympathetic]

Thought you wouldn't see this under-the-radar contract if it was posted any other place

[tiamat63]

On 10/31/2023 at 8:55 AM, jrb12711 said:

 

EDIT: I'm taking an educated guess you're presuming the Seahawks get 12 yards return (their average) but in that situation it's very unlikely.

 First off, I started this post on Monday in another tab.  Haven't had even remotely enough time to finish it.  I'm on my way to go drop my car off for some work (pre-winter stuff too.  Because, as luck would have it, mother nature is cool to be a bitch and snow the other day)  I'll be at the gym, sort of writing more down mentally as I go.    But first I wanted to apologize specifically to you for Sunday.    I didn't mean offense or arrogance, but it came across as both and that wasn't my intent.   You're a solid dude and post quality stuff. Again, that's my bad.

 

On 10/31/2023 at 7:30 AM, Korsou Dawg said:

This should not be in quotation marks.

I am still fuming about that choice, but happy to agree to disagree. 

.

 

Happy to have you as a part of the conversation.  

 

I have a post, like I said I started monday, that goes over some things.

- Defensive tendencies for both teams

- Defensive tendencies for the Browns against San Fran

- Offensive tendencies and playcalls for those last few drives

- Playcalls for that last series.

 

  I'm not arguing against the merits of what the alternative may have been, and just like the Watson trade, it's probably something I would have gone the opposite of.  In Sunday's case, if I were calling plays, I would have dialed up that QB wrap... although I know what that could spell, and then punted.     Again, NOT questioning the validity of the strategy.  With the way this defense is structured and playing, I actually suspect there might be more last drive struggles ahead of them in these sorts of games.  I know that isn't a popular or fun opinion, but I have good evidence to highlight it.

   I appreciate Stefs balls trying to ice the game.  He didn't call it like he was scared.  More importantly, I saw the designs he called and they were there against similar coverages from earlier in the game, no less.    The throw(s) were there, the execution just wasn't.     I'm only saying this - neither play would have been an absolute.  Ever see Crimson Tide? Denzel and Gene Hackman?  Great movie, check it out if you haven't.   That's sort of how I'm viewing these debates.

 

Ultimately we will (likely) end up on that 'agree to disagree'.  And keep in mind, fellas - I'm perfectly fine with that.  All I ask is that the reasoning, and the acceptance of counter reasoning, is still maintained.

 

 

 

[tiamat63]

2 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

Thought you wouldn't see this under-the-radar contract if it was posted any other place

Yeah, that one still stings.

[jrb12711]

4 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 First off, I started this post on Monday in another tab.  Haven't had even remotely enough time to finish it.  I'm on my way to go drop my car off for some work (pre-winter stuff too.  Because, as luck would have it, mother nature is cool to be a bitch and snow the other day)  I'll be at the gym, sort of writing more down mentally as I go.    But first I wanted to apologize specifically to you for Sunday.    I didn't mean offense or arrogance, but it came across as both and that wasn't my intent.   You're a solid dude and post quality stuff. Again, that's my bad.

Nothing but love big dog - it takes a man to own up to things and I sincerely appreciate it. Can’t say I have that issue here in south Florida- don’t miss the snow one bit. 

still shoulda run the damn ball though haha. 

[tiamat63]

23 hours ago, jrb12711 said:

Nothing but love big dog - it takes a man to own up to things and I sincerely appreciate it. Can’t say I have that issue here in south Florida- don’t miss the snow one bit. 

still shoulda run the damn ball though haha. 

 

Aaaaand it ended up being 60 today.   Only in Ohio can you play 9 holes after work then go to a high school playoff game that's going to be 40-ish degrees within a few hours.

[jrb12711]

On 11/3/2023 at 6:56 PM, tiamat63 said:

 

Aaaaand it ended up being 60 today.   Only in Ohio can you play 9 holes after work then go to a high school playoff game that's going to be 40-ish degrees within a few hours.

As much as where I live has waned on me, one thing I love is much more consistent weather. The extreme swings kept me sick from November to the new year living in North Carolina. 

[Unsympathetic]

How Browns built 2023 D

Elliot is now #1 in run-stop% among all NFL DI at 48.8%.. What the?

[Dutch Oven]

6 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

How Browns built 2023 D

Elliot is now #1 in run-stop% among all NFL DI at 48.8%.. What the?

Slow learner?

[tiamat63]

On 11/6/2023 at 3:12 PM, jrb12711 said:

As much as where I live has waned on me, one thing I love is much more consistent weather. The extreme swings kept me sick from November to the new year living in North Carolina. 

Every season change, for about a week, I get what amounts to seasonal allergies.   Likely will only get worse as I get older.  And in NEO, where I can experience summer and winter in the same damn day, I do what I can to stay healthy.

 

6 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

How Browns built 2023 D

Elliot is now #1 in run-stop% among all NFL DI at 48.8%.. What the?

 I'd be curious how his, I believe 2? TFL's against the Colts really add into that.   I know, out of all the top DT's, he likely has one of, if not the lowest snap count as a backup.   He backdoored the colts IOL twice that game and got lucky blowing things up.     I haven't checked what PFF's grade has been for him, but he was still getting pretty negative marks from me when I went to assign them.  Wouldn't be surprised to see theirs stack up and right along with mine.  

 So he can win in run stop percentage as a 2nd, borderline 3rd string player, and keeping his snap count down.  But his grades over the course of a season tend to be what they are.  

 Which reminds me, I'm hoping Ika gets his nod to be active this week.   One of the adjustments the Ravens and Titans made was to run weak when we would call over to strength.  Mo and Shelby were blown up quite a few times.  It would go a long way having the bigger body in there just to sit his ass on that gap and not let the center fold him.

[Flugel]

13 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Slow learner?

That or he was just pacing himself...

[nickers]

3 hours ago, Flugel said:

That or he was just pacing himself...

Maybe it's called "System" conducive to a players strengths... It sure as hell wasn't Joe Woods'

[tiamat63]

12 minutes ago, nickers said:

Maybe it's called "System" conducive to a players strengths... It sure as hell wasn't Joe Woods'

That reminds me, the Saints under Joe Woods are leading the NFC South and ...

- tied with CLE for TDs surrendered

-7th in total defense, up almost double from last year.  7th in scoring. 

- 13th in total points allowed 

- 4th in 3rd down defense 

- leading the NFL in Ints 

 

 

 Again, cool with you being in this thread.  But if you're going to keep using the word "system" like you know and have been doing, then I'm going to ask you to take the time to detail the differences.   I'm also going to need you to explain why the Saints defense isn't awful as well then this year, since it's the same guy. 

[Dutch Oven]

4 hours ago, nickers said:

Fuck you , Take your holier than thou act elsewhere... You don't own this goddamn site!

That is true, tia does not in fact own this site.

But he sure owns you. 

[tiamat63]

5 hours ago, nickers said:

Fuck you , Take your holier than thou act elsewhere... You don't own this goddamn site!

 

  I apologized to JRB previously in this thread for a comment I made, not so much at him, but in general that was a response to him.   Apologizing to him was the right thing to do, he knows ball, talks it well, and I enjoy what he has to say.   And I will make sure I check my attitude at the door for anyone who brings quality discussion where mutual knowledge is shared.     But that isn't you.  

  For every slightly sensible thing you say, there are another dozen inaccurate, unoriginal and immature takes.   Didn't you say Jacoby Brissett was trash?  Even more funny, all you did was insult my work when I broke down his time in Miami. Here we are a year later, and you're in the crowd hoping the Browns traded back for him.   "Shitpantski", really? I bet you think calling television "smellavision" is top fucking tier.       The site is not mine, it's owned by Steve but, in a sense conveyed by him, belongs to all.  Because he's someone who wants to drive this project as a community.   Which is exactly what this is.    I deal with enough effeminate males in my personal and professional life to have to read whining in my own thread.    And THAT, is exactly what this is.  The one I start every year that rolls through until the season is over, is mine and allowed as my own sort of 'platform', if you will.    While I take ownership of this thread (in a sense) I want community involvement absolutely, because this game has been my passion since I was 13 and I love few things more than talking to those as passionate, dedicated and intelligent.

 

 I moderate this thread and this thread only.  All that I ask is people bring their A+ game.   I know others might have noticed I haven't been very diligent posting my breakdowns here as I was.  Time is a currency I have less of these days, and I'm not about to burn mine scrolling through or past people who don't have something to say worth the time reading.  

 Come in, share information, drop something funny, enlightening, worth reading,  betting advice, or digest the football knowledge and assessments given and let them marinate.  I've handed this board hundreds of dollars worth of gambling info in the last 2 years alone - use it to your advantage.

 Anything less from you, or anyone else, can piss off and keep on moving.    

 

 

[Dutch Oven]

As often as nickers brings me up, I almost get the impression that he has a crush on me. 

I'm flattered. 

And that's a hilarious take on your thoughts of Brissett when he signed with the Browns. You praised him? 😄

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, nickers said:

I said nothing of the kind about Jacoby.. I praised him..

 

 

 

 

You ....07/24/2022 - "Briskett is Trash". "Spare us the bullshit"

 It's right there in the link and your post I had quoted over a year ago.    Along with me still asking you 'what' about Joe Woods scheme is the issue?

  PM me if you want to come back to the adults table at any point.  We welcome anyone who behaves as such.   Until then, your act is removed from this thread.

[tiamat63]

 I'd love to see these sorts of gap exchanges by the Browns defense, but they really aren't built like that.   The biggest difference being that we don't have a Bobby Wagner.    Although I'd been effusive in calling Delpit 'Jamal Adams lite'.  

 

Its been quite a while since I've seen, what I was coached, as a "true" double eagle.      For Buckeye fans, you'll remember this one vividly.   This is the defensive front Va Tech used widely to beat Urban Meyers option attack when they visited The Shoe in 2014.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This is a gap exchange from Bobby and Jamal vs the Ravens double backside power read.  

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 The Brownies have used quite a bit more Over fronts (3 tech to strength) lately.  Where we opened up the season playing more Under.   I'd like to see us go back to more Under and Odd looks, but this is why I mentioned Siaki Ika in the other thread.  We don't have those big body LB's like Bobby Wagner.    If they want (be nice) to go back to some Under and disrupt these looks with our bigger bodies up front, then I need that space eater who can hold that front side shade down, disrupt the pulls by taking the center vertically upfield and let the LB's get under and past pulls before they begin to develop.     Downside, like there is to everything, is that it opens up more looks in the RPO game for Mark Andrews.   

 Either way, this defense was far too aggressive and way to many communication busts off motion the first time around.   Delpit needs to spend extra time in the film room and meeting room this week.   Because, until the Ravens see that he isn't a crux of gap integrity issues, they're going to go right back at him and he has to be prepared to fill that same role Adams did last week.

 

 edit: Two more observations.

 Lamar LOVES starting his progressions Mark Andrews side, even if the defensive leverage isn't ideal for it.   Where Seattle fucked around and found out, was calling pressures FROM the same side Andrews was on.  That's going to be a big no-no moving forward, because you aren't going to be able to surprise Lamar from a side where his eyes are starting.

 Really want to see the defense structure around more 5 man pressures, start to finish this time.  Jackson has become a patient enough passer where he isn't bailing on clean pockets consistently if he anticipates it or gets ghosts more than he feels it, especially early if you don't get to him.  He still isn't elite or even significantly above average throwing off balance or off platform going from 1 to 2 to 3... but if you give him a clean pocket to step and throw, despite his wonky motion, he delivers a pretty pass.   

 

double edit: For the gambles.  Lamar Jackson O/U 209 passing yards.   If the Browns offense comes out healthy and actually forces the Ravens to have to move the ball in the 2nd half, I'd feel comfortable taking the over on that for Lamar.   Pass attempts will probably sit between 24-27 as well.  

[syd]

nickers top ten of stupid

Kevin is gonna ruin Deshaun just like he ruined Mayfield... Stef is a QB killer...

and he got pissed at me for calling him out ? cousins brissett and mayfield all had their best years working with kevin .

I will never bring this up again. And  I never bet on a Browns game, My heart can't take it

[syd]

I do not have any number's ? But i do believe we play in man coverage more often than zone. And with their qb, shouldn't we play more zone ?

[tiamat63]

15 minutes ago, syd said:

I do not have any number's ? But i do believe we play in man coverage more often than zone. And with their qb, shouldn't we play more zone ?

 That has sort of become a bit of an out dated way of dealing with QBs who have elite wheels.  The old school way was to zone behind everything because you'd always hear about "having eyes on the QB". 

 Regardless if it's man, match/mod or zone, where it really matters is up front.  You have to maintain your integrity and not surrender easy rushing lanes.  If you're getting it done there, you can run your man coverage, or a variety of calls, and find success against Lamar.  I cite what I say because of the success I've watched the Titans defense have against him several times now.  Consistently holding Jackson well under season averages. 

[syd]

7 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 That has sort of become a bit of an out dated way of dealing with QBs who have elite wheels.  The old school way was to zone behind everything because you'd always hear about "having eyes on the QB". 

 Regardless if it's man, match/mod or zone, where it really matters is up front.  You have to maintain your integrity and not surrender easy rushing lanes.  If you're getting it done there, you can run your man coverage, or a variety of calls, and find success against Lamar.  I cite what I say because of the success I've watched the Titans defense have against him several times now.  Consistently holding Jackson well under season averages. 

Nope going old school and I agree with starting up front  pressure. Newsome is questionable and Mitchell went on ir

[syd]

On 11/8/2023 at 3:40 PM, Dutch Oven said:

Brissett when he signed with the Browns. You praised him

I sure as hell did. I thought Indy were fools to let him go

[tiamat63]

A few great adjustments by Stef and Van Pelt after that nasty 1st quarter.  The big one was to make Kyle Hamilton a target in coverage.    Those flat routes by Njoku were, I truly believe, sight adjusts off of his alignment.  

 

 

The inline motion from Njoku means the corner now picks up Ced as the #1 instead of david. So in the Ravens familiar single high, he has to carry him upfield.   Meaning Hamilton will pick up Njoku and he's sitting just inside shade of David, with his eyes in the back field like the aggressive downhill player he is.  

 

 So this turns into a read off of his leverage.  If he's inside like that, you run underneath him and flat, while Ced carries upfield and forces him to get past/through the rub to make the tackle.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

The offshoot of this was when he would play the curl/flat in their cover 3.  

 

 Both Watson and Njoku HAVE to be on the same page here.   Speaking of pages, you're welcomed to go back a few and read my comments, but THIS is the connection I said that has needed the most improvement and, IMHO, was the most important to find offensive continuity moving forward.   Because it gives us the ability to attack these sort of defensive calls with a size and athletic mismatch all in one.  

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a VERY promising start to this on field dynamic.   I can only hope, like the rest of us, that our health holds up and we see more of this week to week.   I have one more observation from the running game to follow.

[syd]

37 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

running game

what the hell got into Ford today

[tiamat63]

6 minutes ago, syd said:

what the hell got into Ford today

 

Great question.   We showed this midway through the 2nd qtr, but couldn't really keep going back to it because of being down by multiple scores.  But this was the coaches answer for the Ravens continuing to send pressure off the edge.

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Keep in mind, this isn't a true "read"  Watson isn't going to keep this, barring going completely rogue.  You unblock the edge,  and freeze them playing QB keep.   You fold the nose from the center, pull bito and Njoku on the right stands up the other edge.   So what you're doing is bluffing a read outside, pulling inside, stealing a gap and creating a 1on1 block with the high safety having to be responsible to come down on Ford.    All he has to do is be patient, let the block setup on the pull, and read off of that.  

-----------------------------------------

 

 Want to take a moment to highlight Njoku's continued improved blocking.  Both outside and Inline.   I know he had a few rough moments today, including dropping an open catch for a first down.  But he did the dirty work when it counted as well.   He bounced back in a real strong way in the 2nd half.

[syd]

6 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

dropping an open catch for a first down.

heart attack there. Ya he did show up today infact all year

[tiamat63]

 Just like the first meeting, the Ravens first offensive touchdown scored was a design that directly takes advantage of Grant Delpits overly aggressive nature.    Instead of showing it from the misdirection to QB wrap, Baltimore got creative from under center showing the hand on a fake smoke to slant, and ran a sprint draw misdirection off of that and under Myles.  

 

 It sort of reminded me of a staple play from Charlie Weiss' offense.  Darius Walker really came on strong his last couple years at Notre Dame because he was a patient runner who would let these develop.   Play is at the 2:12 mark.

 Showing that bluff to the slot gets aggressive second level defenders to expand laterally and upfield at the same time.  Meaning they take themselves further from, or completely out of the play.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Baltimore did something of their own like that from under center against our 8 man box.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

 Lamar takes the pump at the weakside "slant" during his drive step from under center.   Delpit, in his nature, opens his hips and attacks laterally far too quickly and aggressively.  I understand you want to get underneath this slant and house it like you did against Pittsburgh, but this is tendency being used against you now.   The problem isn't that you bit on the cheese, it's how incredibly HARD to bit down on it.  Leaving little, if any, room to recover.

----------------------------------------------------------------

- Another component is us using Myles as the edge monster he is.  Because of that, it too can be used against us in these situations if that B gap integrity isn't maintained. 

- Delpit see's his mistake, squares his shoulders and drives downfield.  

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 Much like his predecessor, Jabril, Grants angles coming from depth can be a serious problem at times.  And since the Ravens haven't shown much of Keaton Mitchell, he underestimates the first step quickness and ability to hit top end.   Mitch isn't a big dude, but he's an athlete in space.    Delpit should have attacked heading towards the numbers and turned this back inside and down the lane where pursuit (and Thornhill) would have been.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

 

  Emerson just doesn't have the food speed to close here.   This is what a true 4.3 looks like when you hit top gear.  Impressive shit on a football field when you get natural runners to space.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  The defense obviously came back to make some plays, including some drive killings sacks and a huge pick six.  But these early game mental mistakes by Grant need to be cleaned up in the worst possible way.  Because you can only get into so many double digit holes before your offense just isn't able to climb back in it.  

 

edit:  Can't spare Taki either.  When you're playing a zero stack like that off a dline shift, you can't get caught flat footed not getting to the gap as the fill and then walk into a pin by a lineman.    He's been struggling with these looks as well.   He's another one whose play has been very up and down at times.

[Dutch Oven]

If you could put one defensive player in the NFL on the Browns in the back seven, who would it be tia?

It feels like we are missing one top tier LB or safety from our defense to being a more consistent top-notch squad. 

[tiamat63]

4 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

If you could put one defensive player in the NFL on the Browns in the back seven, who would it be tia?

 

 

 If money was no issue?   Minkah is the first name my mind goes to.    Probably the most complete safety in the NFL and would be that middle field eraser when we're single high.  And that is where we run into problems the most, especially when Delpit is said high safety. 

   Honorable mention to Winfield and possibly another name you won't hear much - Jevon Holland.  There are a couple other young names I'll be keeping my eye on as the season goes who look like they might take up that torch and carry it into the next few years.    

 

 If this was operating off of cap squeeze and trying to find one piece to fuel a defensive minded playoff run?  Malik Hooker.  Would be sick having babayega back in Ohio roaming the middle.

 

 

 

[Ibleedbrown]

Question about Watson’s throwing mechanics. A number of his throws this last game reminded me of a basketball hook shot, more wrist and elbow than shoulder. I don’t think that’s any kind of astute observation, the guy’s got a bad shoulder and all, but l feel like he’s been working at these types of throws the last few games with mixed results, but l think he’s found a groove and even figuring out how to sling some longer passes like that.

Anyone else seeing this or is it in my head?