Draft Talk

[The Gipper]

Ever consider that the QB premium might be inflating Mitch's stock?

Yes....just as it has inflated the stock of every QB drafted the last 20 years. But from what I have seen...in limited time, he fits right in with the upper echelon of those taken whose stock was either inflated or not.

[Tour2ma]

A bit.

 

Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.

 

I have a feeling that my mind is going to change about a billion times during the next 5 months. Right now, I'm having a VERY hard time getting my mind off of Garrett. That speed around the edge, and his ability to actually stop the run are so tantalizing (did I say tantalizing?). With Ogbah stringing together a stretch of 8 games where he is top ten in the NFL in "QB Pressures", AND actually finishing a few sacks, the ability to put a speed rusher on the other side might be too much to pass over. Danny Shelton made a HUGE leap this year, and if he can get better next year, we could have consistent pressure from the sides AND the middle. That's how you completely bugger an offense. Toss in Desmond Bryant for good measure, and you have the beginning of a nasty front.

 

But...if we do that, we're back to the age old, "WTF do we do about the QB position?!". Best case scenario for us is that we fall in love with the other QB prospects. We're obviously NOT going to get both Garrett and Mitch, so we'll have to hope that either Watson is the real deal, or Kizer is better than many think. Kizer seems so difficult to fully evaluate because of the cluster chicken that is Notre Dame. Let's hope Hue Jackson and the front office know what they're doing.

 

Edit: Just saw a mock draft that had us taking Mitch with #1, and then Alabama's Rueben Foster with the Eagle's pick. He's a NASTY inside linebacker, and probably the hardest hitter in the entire draft. He does NOT mess around, and there are more than a few Browns' fans that would love a "nasty" type player enforcing the middle. The thing is....I don't understand where he'd play, assuming we manage to keep Collins. Kirksey is a good player, Collins is amazing...so what do you do? Move Collins to the outside and keep Kirksey and Foster inside? I dunno.

 

I'm moving Myles' way as well. Love Allen, and his fit, but every time I do the First-Pick thing, I can't pull the trigger on him at #1. Despite the assurances of Mud and others tho, I still suffer from Garrett-scheme-paranoia.

 

Assume we go Garrett and 4-3... Would Foster in the middle flanked by Collins and Kirksey, in an Iowa, OLB redux, float your boat?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Yes....just as it has inflated the stock of every QB drafted the last 20 years. But from what I have seen...in limited time, he fits right in with the upper echelon of those taken whose stock was either inflated or not.

 

In your evaluation, what makes you think that Trubisky is on the level of Manning, Luck, Newton, Elway, Stafford, etc?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.

 

 

I'm moving Myles' way as well. Love Allen, and his fit, but every time I do the First-Pick thing, I can't pull the trigger on him at #1. Despite the assurances of Mud and others tho, I still suffer from Garrett-scheme-paranoia.

 

Assume we go Garrett and 4-3... Would Foster in the middle flanked by Collins and Kirksey, in an Iowa, OLB redux, float your boat?

 

 

I don't see why we'd have to subscribe one way or the other, to be honest. With Collins, Garrett, Kirksey, Nassib, Ogbah and Shelton on the field, we'd be able to transition from 3-4 to 4-3 on the field seamlessly.

 

4-3 LBs: ROLB Kirksey MLB Foster LOLB Collins

4-3 DL: RE Garrett DT Cooper?? DT Shelton LE Nassib/Ogbah

 

Moving to a 3-4, just trot Garrett back to ROLB and slide Cooper to RE. Having guys like Nassib, Ogbah, and Collins enables us to have a transformative defense.

[Tour2ma]

I think I'm hung up on the Mingo experiment even tho I know that Garrett is not Mingo...

[cdl15]

As long as they just take J. Peppers off their board all together.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

As long as they just take J. Peppers off their board all together.

 

I would hope we don't want Julius Peppers. Dude is like 100 years old.

 

/sarcasm

[The Gipper]

 

Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.

 

I am not sure why you would want to hear more of my opinion about this, really. As I am not an expert. I know that I like what I see. I am assuming that those doing the mocks and rankings are done by professionals.

 

So...perhaps you should be thankful that I do list the opinions of those others....as, if you really want my opinions, those can be had by the payment of my hourly rate. Where should I send my invoice?

 

 

 

[The Gipper]

 

In your evaluation, what makes you think that Trubisky is on the level of Manning, Luck, Newton, Elway, Stafford, etc?

Well, from my unprofessional point of view (unless you too wish to be paying me for my professional point of view), I just see a certain innate talent.

Marino/Namath like quickness of release. As strong an arm as any of those (except probably Elway....who has ever had a stronger arm). Accuracy, poise. Mobility. Touch.

[Tour2ma]

I am not sure why you would want to hear more of my opinion about this, really. As I am not an expert. I know that I like what I see. I am assuming that those doing the mocks and rankings are done by professionals.

 

So...perhaps you should be thankful that I do list the opinions of those others....as, if you really want my opinions, those can be had by the payment of my hourly rate. Where should I send my invoice?

 

Did you mean to say "stick"?

 

Because it's your opinion of a player vs. your opinion of an opinion or opinions.

 

Shit, Gip... we're all amateur evaluators here... something you remind us of almost daily. And we can also all read mocks and rankings... whenever we want to.

 

Right now, I choose to pretty much ignore the published stuff. With so much time to go... so many league-wide needs TBD... so many underclassmen yet to decide... I find that it's just not worth the time yet.

[jiggins7919]

 

Cool... sincerely... cool... More of this, please, and posts bringing what you see for discussion and debate. Less citing of mocks and rankings and "reports" of our intentions to bludgeon Mitch to the top of everyone's boards.

 

 

I'm moving Myles' way as well. Love Allen, and his fit, but every time I do the First-Pick thing, I can't pull the trigger on him at #1. Despite the assurances of Mud and others tho, I still suffer from Garrett-scheme-paranoia.

 

Assume we go Garrett and 4-3... Would Foster in the middle flanked by Collins and Kirksey, in an Iowa, OLB redux, float your boat?

 

Ya...it sure as hell WOULD. I think Dick LaBeaux (sp?) once said, "You can NEVER have enough linebackers." Obviously, he was speaking in terms of a 3-4, but I believe it applies to our 4-3 as well. For all intents and purposes, we pretty much play a 4-3 now. I'm guessing our front 4 would look something like Ogbah, Shelton, D. Bryant, and Nassib. Our linebackers would then be Kirksey, Foster, and Collins. Now, I don't want to get ahead of myself, but geez...that doesn't actually look terrible. However, if we take Foster with Eagles' pick, we obviously can't take Garrett with our first pick because of the whole "we still don't have an effing QB" thingy. We take Foster, we have to go QB first. UNLESS we have a guy identified that will be available in the second, but then the odds of finding a "day 1" starter get pretty low. And make no bones about it, we NEED a day 1 starter.

 

There's one more option, and most aren't going to like it. Many years there are QB's (and other players) that slip in the first round for whatever reason. Maybe they had a bad pro day, didn't run as fast, or scored low on the Wonderlic. Remember how Teddy Twatwater was the #1 pick all year, and then all of the sudden he was thin, had a weak arm, and lord knows what else? Suppose we take Garrett first, then Foster with next pick...and then someone like Kizer or Watson starts to slip. He gets past the teams that need a QB, and the "QB rich" teams obviously pass on him. Then...we're sitting with the first pick of the second round....and then we TRADE UP to grab our QB. We have the resources to make this happen. Day 1 could very easily look like Garrett, Foster, and Watson. We get the dynamic pass rusher to go opposite Ogbah (sorry Nassib, haven't shown me anything lately), who is also stout against the run. Keep in mind that Garrett is VERY young, and his frame could easily hold another 15 pounds without sacrificing much speed. Then you add Foster...the ruthless, feared enforcer we desperately need. And make no mistake about it, we NEED somebody to instill FEAR inside the opposition. You want your TE to come across the middle?? Ok, well he's about to visit La-La Land. Then you tack on Watson, perhaps the most important of everyone. Would it hurt to give up resources? Hell yes. But if we grade Watson out to be a starter....then it's completely worth it.

[The Gipper]

 

Did you mean to say "stick"?

 

Because it's your opinion of a player vs. your opinion of an opinion or opinions.

 

Shit, Gip... we're all amateur evaluators here... something you remind us of almost daily. And we can also all read mocks and rankings... whenever we want to.

 

Right now, I choose to pretty much ignore the published stuff. With so much time to go... so many league-wide needs TBD... so many underclassmen yet to decide... I find that it's just not worth the time yet.

Well, then, if you ignore the published stuff....then there is nothing else to look at. Except watching things on your own.

So, riddle me this: who cares about "league wide" needs? Browns likely got #1 overall....it don't matter what other teams need...not as far as that pick is concerned. (perhaps with our second pick)

and most of the rankings apply to those who could be eligible to come out, so the best of them are included. (unless you really want to delve into 3-4-5-6-7 round picks.

[Tour2ma]

As long as we don't trade up to #22...

 

One QB seems to always fall... often thru no fault of their own. Agree that waiting at #33 would likely be perilous and a trade to 28-ish would not be very expensive... even trivial if you hit. Plus there's the whole 5th year option thing that comes with 1st rounders...

[Tour2ma]

Suppose we take Garrett first, then Foster with next pick...and then someone like Kizer or Watson starts to slip. He gets past the teams that need a QB, and the "QB rich" teams obviously pass on him. Then...we're sitting with the first pick of the second round....and then we TRADE UP to grab our QB. We have the resources to make this happen. Day 1 could very easily look like Garrett, Foster, and Watson...

 

As long as we don't trade up to #22...

 

One QB seems to always fall... often thru no fault of their own. Personally I'd just as see it be Kizer, but regardless I agree that waiting at #33 would likely be perilous and a trade to 28-ish would not be very expensive... even trivial, if you hit.

 

Plus there's the whole 5th year option thing that comes with 1st rounder...

[gftChris]

As long as we don't trade up to #22...

 

One QB seems to always fall... often thru no fault of their own. Agree that waiting at #33 would likely be perilous and a trade to 28-ish would not be very expensive... even trivial if you hit. Plus there's the whole 5th year option thing that comes with 1st rounders...

For the fifth year option alone I'd rather take a QB at 28 and give up say a third or fourth round pick. And while we're at it is rather give up our low third comp pick than the first pick in the fourth round - take the extra 24 hours to decide on your pick. And, you know, do better than Joe Schobert.

[jiggins7919]

That's a fair point. The other guy I see entering into the "mid first round" area is Mason Rudolph from Oklahoma State. He runs that shotgun "read-option" style of offense that Hue Jackson appears to favor. Hell, we got most of our good runs from either a draw or the read-option formation. He's not fast, but not slow either. Throws a gorgeous, looping deep ball which allows his receivers to run under the ball, but can also juice it when needed. Good size, too. I haven't done any "research" on him, but at least he's another name to consider. I know other people on this board have mentioned him earlier, but this is the first time I've read up on him.

 

Man, it's mid-December and I'm already so stoked about this draft. The damn 49's choked on Sunday (naturally), and I'm a little worried the Chargers won't travel well and we'll sneak out an ugly victory that does nothing but cost us the first pick. LOL. I remember a few years ago when we played the Bolts in the snow and we won a 9-6 game or something close to it. With them out of the playoff hunt, possibly moving cities...I could see them mailing it in.

[Tour2ma]

lol... I swear... at this point a win would hurt.

 

But if it happens... Allen at #2? I could pull the trigger on him at #2.

 

Then add Foster at 9-ish...

 

Still works... not as sexy, but still works.

[The Gipper]

Sure, lets go for average. We can always get another Charlie Frye, Colt McCoy, Kessler etc. with a 3rd round pick.

(how many Russell Wilson's or Dak Prescotts come from those rounds?)

[Tour2ma]

Well, then, if you ignore the published stuff....then there is nothing else to look at. Except watching things on your own.

So, riddle me this: who cares about "league wide" needs? Browns likely got #1 overall....it don't matter what other teams need...not as far as that pick is concerned. (perhaps with our second pick)

and most of the rankings apply to those who could be eligible to come out, so the best of them are included. (unless you really want to delve into 3-4-5-6-7 round picks.

 

I do end up going Day three deep... if nothing else that damn First-Pick game drags me there. But nothing like unearthing a sleeper in your studies.

 

I do try to ignore the stuff, but some of it is unavoidable... here... on EPSN...

 

As far as league wide needs... I care... just helps to develop the Day 1 picture. Sure #1 is immune, but not #9-ish... or #33.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

lol... I swear... at this point a win would hurt.

 

But if it happens... Allen at #2? I could pull the trigger on him at #2.

 

Then add Foster at 9-ish...

 

Still works... not as sexy, but still works.

 

The sexiest thing I could think of would be us grabbing Garrett at #1, then SF taking Watson at #2 and Chicago taking Trubisky at #4 and the Jets passing on QB with their first round pick.

 

That would leave us the option of getting Robinson or Foster at #9-#10 and conceivably having Kizer slide all the way to us at #33.

 

 

EDIT:

 

Or, even better, Fournette.

 

Round 1 Pick 1: Myles Garrett, DE/OLB, Texas A&M (A+)

Round 1 Pick 10: Leonard Fournette, RB, LSU (A+)

Round 2 Pick 1: DeShone Kizer, QB, Notre Dame (B+)

Round 2 Pick 15: Corey Davis, WR, Western Michigan (A)

Round 3 Pick 1: Tre'Davious White, CB, LSU (A)

Round 4 Pick 1: Avery Gennesy, OT, Texas A&M (

Round 5 Pick 31: John Johnson, FS, Boston College (A-)

Round 6 Pick 1: Sean Harlow, OG, Oregon State (B-)

[The Gipper]

The sexiest thing I could think of would be us grabbing Garrett at #1, then SF taking Watson at #2 and Chicago taking Trubisky at #4 and the Jets passing on QB with their first round pick.

 

That would leave us the option of getting Robinson or Foster at #9-#10 and conceivably having Kizer slide all the way to us at #33.

 

 

EDIT:

 

Or, even better, Fournette.

 

Round 1 Pick 1: Myles Garrett, DE/OLB, Texas A&M (A+)

Round 1 Pick 10: Leonard Fournette, RB, LSU (A+)

Round 2 Pick 1: DeShone Kizer, QB, Notre Dame (B+)

Round 2 Pick 15: Corey Davis, WR, Western Michigan (A)

Round 3 Pick 1: Tre'Davious White, CB, LSU (A)

Round 4 Pick 1: Avery Gennesy, OT, Texas A&M (

Round 5 Pick 31: John Johnson, FS, Boston College (A-)

Round 6 Pick 1: Jean Harlow, OG, Oregon State (B-)

If we must, Garrett would work. But other than Davis, not much else floats my boat..except to say that you have filled need positions with names I don't really know.

Though I do like the hot blonde you took with that last pick.

[wargograw]

Gennesy is a worse Shon Coleman.

[Taco918]

That's a fair point. The other guy I see entering into the "mid first round" area is Mason Rudolph from Oklahoma State. He runs that shotgun "read-option" style of offense that Hue Jackson appears to favor. Hell, we got most of our good runs from either a draw or the read-option formation. He's not fast, but not slow either. Throws a gorgeous, looping deep ball which allows his receivers to run under the ball, but can also juice it when needed. Good size, too. I haven't done any "research" on him, but at least he's another name to consider. I know other people on this board have mentioned him earlier, but this is the first time I've read up on him.

 

Man, it's mid-December and I'm already so stoked about this draft. The damn 49's choked on Sunday (naturally), and I'm a little worried the Chargers won't travel well and we'll sneak out an ugly victory that does nothing but cost us the first pick. LOL. I remember a few years ago when we played the Bolts in the snow and we won a 9-6 game or something close to it. With them out of the playoff hunt, possibly moving cities...I could see them mailing it in.

As an OSU alum, I've been trying to keep the Rudolph talk down as I need him back in Stillwater next year. 2017 is supposed to be our "year" as it were, assuming everyone comes back. Unless he has a career game against the Buffs in the Alamo Bowl, I assume (hope) he will come back, especially after Bedlam.

 

But with the season winding down, and my attempts to keep the talk down not working, I figure it's about time I put in my two cents.

 

First, we ran a bit of the read option this year but we ran a predominantly uptempo, deep ball oriented offense. You were spot on about the shotgun though. Obviously we ran the spread but still had a healthy balance of run and pass.

 

It was a great system for Rudolph. He throws an amazing deep ball and has a more than adequate arm. His intermediate accuracy is solid as well. He isn't the quickest guy, but he is tough as nails and will fight for extra yards. I wouldn't want him doing it at the next level but I appreciate the willingness to do so.

 

However, he doesn't do well dinking and dunking. Check out the Baylor game this year to see how that worked out. (I can't tell if Baylor was just doubling Washington or if Gundy was trying to get cute but it was our worst game of the year by far) His short accuracy isn't awful, but that's just not his game. I'm still not sure but I think he might fight for yards in the running game because he doesn't know how to slide, which isn't ideal. He's got good size but he's not Cam. He also seems to have issues with weather which you can check out from Bedlam this year. I'm not sure if it's the size of his hands or what but he needs to learn how to throw with a glove this offseason. He also had a solid set of receivers with Washington being a fucking savant at coming down with the deep ball. While I wouldn't hold that against Rudolph necessarily, it would be ideal for him to have a legit deep threat at the next level.

 

Another potential issue might be the offense. It was uptempo and the play calling came from the sidelines. Once Rudolph got the play, he'd do a box count to decide run or pass. If it was a pass, the first option was usually a deep ball. If the receiver was in single coverage, Rudolph would let it fly. If the first option was doubled, he'd move on to his next progression. Obviously nothing too advanced so there will be a bit of a transition to the next level.

 

Personally, I love the kid. He's by far the best QB we've had in Stillwater. However I do think he needs at least one more year here and not solely for my own selfish reasons. If he can make some strides in the short passing game and get the throwing with a glove thing down, he has the potential to go very high next year. As it stands now, he has the potential to be a solid if not good QB at the next level, but only in the right system. His ideal system, in my eyes, would be a vertical offense similar to Baltimore. If you give him a solid running game and at least one deep threat, he'll get you some wins. He would also probably be better off in a warm climate or dome, and would be better off sitting for a bit.

 

As much as I love the kid and would love to see him stay in orange at the next level, I'm not sure if he'd be a great fit here, especially if he needs to start day one. If you asked me before Bedlam, I'd probably be in favor of taking him as I could see him being Hue's version of Dalton here but the weather issue is a big concern for me.

 

 

There is one thing I do know though, he's a shit ton better than Weeden. That's not saying much but still needed to be said due to the, shall we say, history here.

[Mark O]

The sexiest thing I could think of would be us grabbing Garrett at #1, then SF taking Watson at #2 and Chicago taking Trubisky at #4 and the Jets passing on QB with their first round pick.

 

That would leave us the option of getting Robinson or Foster at #9-#10 and conceivably having Kizer slide all the way to us at #33.

 

 

EDIT:

 

Or, even better, Fournette.

 

Round 1 Pick 1: Myles Garrett, DE/OLB, Texas A&M (A+)

Round 1 Pick 10: Leonard Fournette, RB, LSU (A+)

Round 2 Pick 1: DeShone Kizer, QB, Notre Dame (B+)

Round 2 Pick 15: Corey Davis, WR, Western Michigan (A)

Round 3 Pick 1: Tre'Davious White, CB, LSU (A)

Round 4 Pick 1: Avery Gennesy, OT, Texas A&M (

Round 5 Pick 31: John Johnson, FS, Boston College (A-)

Round 6 Pick 1: Sean Harlow, OG, Oregon State (B-)

 

 

Not a big fan of Kizer. I'd rather see more defensive help there and with the 2nd pick in round 2. Our defense is horrendous and needs a lot of help.

[TexasAg1969]

lol... I swear... at this point a win would hurt.

 

But if it happens... Allen at #2? I could pull the trigger on him at #2.

 

Then add Foster at 9-ish...

 

Still works... not as sexy, but still works.

 

Damn Tour, my "build the D first" philosophy seems to be working it's way into your head.

[CaineDeSoulis]

Your Picks:
Round 1 Pick 1: Myles Garrett, DE/OLB, Texas A&M (A+)
Round 1 Pick 10: Mitch Trubisky, QB, North Carolina (A+)
Round 2 Pick 1: Desmond King, CB, Iowa (A)
Round 2 Pick 15: Taco Charlton, DE, Michigan (A)
Round 3 Pick 1: Tyler Orlosky, C, West Virginia (A)
Round 4 Pick 1: Ryan Switzer, WR, North Carolina (C+)
Round 5 Pick 31: Kareem Hunt, RB, Toledo (A-)
Round 6 Pick 1: David Jones, FS, Richmond (A)


while i like the above i dont think there is anyway Mitch falls to 10 so i tried again avoiding mitch at 10

Your Picks:
Round 1 Pick 1: Myles Garrett, DE/OLB, Texas A&M (A+)
Round 1 Pick 10: Jabrill Peppers, OLB/SS, Michigan (A+)
Round 2 Pick 1: Marcus Williams, FS, Utah (A-)
Round 2 Pick 15: Tyler Orlosky, C, West Virginia (B+)
Round 3 Pick 1: Tre'Davious White, CB, LSU (A)
Round 4 Pick 1: Davis Webb, QB, California (A+)
Round 5 Pick 31: Kareem Hunt, RB, Toledo (A-)
Round 6 Pick 1: Ryan Switzer, WR, North Carolina (A+)

That being said i believe this draft would be amazing for the browns. getting a great edge talent in Garrett, Two Elite Secondary players. A real center lol. a CB to play opposite Haden, Best arm talent coming out in 2016. Developmental QB with all the intangibles to play at the next level. Always need to look for RB. hooray someone to play in the slot

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

 

Not a big fan of Kizer. I'd rather see more defensive help there and with the 2nd pick in round 2. Our defense is horrendous and needs a lot of help.

I only see legitimate holes at FS and EDGE. SS could stand an upgrade, but I wouldn't reach to fill the position.

 

 

There's CB talent to be had all throughout the first three rounds if we need it. However, BBC has come on these past two weeks and he's showing signs of being a legitimate nickel at the very least.

 

Defense is important, but a functioning offense is key to success. Ask Oakland and Dallas - build the line out and get yourself a playmaker at QB and WR and good things happen fast. I probably can't name three players on Dallas' defense.

[tiamat63]

Speaking of Rub in the middle - Raekwon talk has been quiet lately. If he slipped to the top half of the 2nd I would love to take that shot.

[RoyceRolls]

Traded back with jax picking up their 2nd and 3rd and still got Myles Garrett...

 

Your Picks:

Round 1 Pick 3 (JAX): Myles Garrett, DE/OLB, Texas A&M (A+)

Round 1 Pick 10: Mitch Trubisky, QB, North Carolina (A+)

Round 2 Pick 1: Ethan Pocic, C/OG, LSU (B+ )

Round 2 Pick 3 (JAX): Adoree' Jackson, CB, Southern California (A-)

Round 2 Pick 15: Dede Westbrook, WR, Oklahoma (A)

Round 3 Pick 1: Takkarist McKinley, OLB/DE, UCLA (A)

Round 3 Pick 3 (JAX): Corey Davis, WR, Western Michigan (A+)

Round 4 Pick 1: Quin Blanding, FS, Virginia (A-)

Round 5 Pick 31: De'Veon Smith, RB, Michigan (C-)

Round 6 Pick 1: Jon Heck, OT, North Carolina (B- )

[tiamat63]

Every time I watch Garret, #10 flashes often.

 

War, help me out here. The opposite DE/LB