slowburn Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Jim Brown came out of the closet today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL_BROWNS_FAN Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 i hear you. i think there might be one post here from a browns fan that brought up the fragile label in 55 posts. so you'll group all the browns fans as saying that? why don't you specifically go after the person who says something you object to, point it out and debate it with them instead of painting such a broad stroke of all us browns' fans and then saying: "see, you guys root for him to fail." Actually I never said you root for him to fail (although some do), but it is a common theme on multiple fan forums including this one the he is too small and too fragile. Look on the thread entitled "survey Wednesday" where someone describes JM as a car that is very fragile. And earlier on this thread someone wanted to take bets on when he would suffer season ending injury. That was actually the post I was replying to but I forgot to quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Actually I never said you root for him to fail (although some do), but it is a common theme on multiple fan forums including this one the he is too small and too fragile. Look on the thread entitled "survey Wednesday" where someone describes JM as a car that is very fragile. And earlier on this thread someone wanted to take bets on when he would suffer season ending injury. That was actually the post I was replying to but I forgot to quote. i think we all hope that manziel is the real deal. sure there'll be naysayers or nitpickers about anything. it's been that way throughout history. why should this be any different? like i said let's see how this all plays out. if hoyer starts give it some time to see how the season progresses. if manziel beats out hoyer to start then the JF fans have nothing to bitch about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 yep. him mike tyson and ray rice are forming a 'gang'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 1) What Manziel is and will do has nothing to do with any past Brown QBs. Zero. Ziltch. Nada. 2) Browns history has nothing to do with Manziel. 3) Browns history has nothing to do with Manziel fans. 4) Poor logic doesn't allow some fans to see things in a fresh hopeful way. 1) True. 2) As Gip pointed out Manziel is now very much a part of Browns history. 3) However, Board history does. This isn't the first time the Browns Board has had an influx of new members because they drafted a certain quarterback. It got so bad once the Quinn fanboys ran off and started their very own forum. 4) But those who don't remember the past are doomed to repeat it. Not to say we're not hopeful things won't be different this time. You're riding the Manziel train, and thinking he can't fail in the Pros. We've seen quarterback after quarterback come in and bomb, from about every possible source, in every possible way. I was certain Tim Couch was going to be super great- still have a #2 Couch jersey gathering dust in the basement. After that fiasco, I learned to temper my enthusiasm. Pulled for the local guys Frye and Quinn to make good, though I had doubts about both- especially Quinn. Derek Anderson looked like he was going to be "the real deal"- and here's a NFL history lesson for you- that was until (and it didn't take long) for teams to figure out he was a one trick pony- take away his deep routes, and he was toast. So what's JF's biggest asset? Mobility you say? That will be the first thing opposing defenses will attempt to take away. (And besides taking away his outside running lanes, don't think more than a few linebackers would like nothing better than to bust one- or both of his knees.) They'll also try to take away his primary receiver to force him to go through his progressions, and throw a ton of coverage disguises and blitzes at him. I dont disagree with your general view but i think we have a different definition of what a fan is. I think you can be a fan of a single player. I do think the team can grow on you much like Texas A&M did to me. Anyone who plays fantasy football can probably agree. If you think that somehow makes them less of a fan, then i think you are trying to pigeon hole the term fan. I think some Brown fans obsess over the past and project it onto the future. Instead of judging Manziel on his own, he has to cure the Browns 31 QB curse too. I see myself as a very level headed knowledgeable football fan. I don’t limit my thinking with outdated views. Manziel was discussed and judged plenty on this forum pre-draft, there were quotes and opinions posted about him from damn near every pro talent evaluator on the planet. Well, the level headed and objective among us have said- If JFF was truly as great and "can't miss" as some of his more ardent supporters posit- there is no way in hell the quarterback needy Texans would have passed on him and taken Clowney instead. He lasted till pick #22 for a reason(s)- if you're being objective about it. The circus aside- Manziel has perhaps the highest upside in this qb class- he also has the lowest floor. I've said many times his Heisman (and college stats) don't mean diddly-doo come NFL time, the list of recent Heisman bust qbs is proof enough of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 As I said, twice even, I understand the difference between college and NFL. However, I guess I failed to get my point across. People insist upon calling him fragile although he played two complete seasons with no missed games. If I remember correctly he missed one series of downs in 2012 and two or three series in 2013. This was at the same time that the larger QBs for MO, LSU, GA, etc suffered season ending injuries. Not trying to bring up college exploits, but to refute the fragile label, Did he not have a nagging shoulder injury that affect his performance? There were a lot of people outside this board including more than a few pro talent evaluators that hung the "potentially fragile" label on JF. The kid took alot of hits in college. I agree, i dont see him as being fragile. He is built small but compact and he keeps his head on a swivel. I think he will be fine minus the normal bumps and bruises an NFL QB takes. Slide and get out of bounce if you can. Manziel will have to learn how to protect himself. Actually I never said you root for him to fail (although some do), but it is a common theme on multiple fan forums including this one the he is too small and too fragile. Look on the thread entitled "survey Wednesday" where someone describes JM as a car that is very fragile. And earlier on this thread someone wanted to take bets on when he would suffer season ending injury. That was actually the post I was replying to but I forgot to quote. Ah- let me introduce you to Vesna- he of many names- the one and only resident board curmudgeon as we all know as Ghoolie. He's just warming up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 No issue with any of that. I think it's a perception thing, and from my POV, publicity is what defines the "face" of a franchise. Manziel, right or wrong, is in that position because he's a high profile personality who transcended the game in college. I don't think those of us who are denying he is "the face" are saying he is not the most famous/recognizable. We are saying that his association with "the franchise" is just not established as yet. It takes more than simply being on the team. So now Farmer and Petine are clowns? I think it is time to apply Steeler fan rules to Johnny Jismlovers. Agree... when you average a self-contradiction a post in more than three consecutive posts, it's time. And well done once again, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL_BROWNS_FAN Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Manziel was discussed and judged plenty on this forum pre-draft, there were quotes and opinions posted about him from damn near every pro talent evaluator on the planet. Well, the level headed and objective among us have said- If JFF was truly as great and "can't miss" as some of his more ardent supporters posit- there is no way in hell the quarterback needy Texans would have passed on him and taken Clowney instead. He lasted till pick #22 for a reason(s)- if you're being objective about it. The circus aside- Manziel has perhaps the highest upside in this qb class- he also has the lowest floor. I've said many times his Heisman (and college stats) don't mean diddly-doo come NFL time, the list of recent Heisman bust qbs is proof enough of that. As far as the Texans are concerned, I never thought that they would take him because he was not a good fit with O'Brien. I believe the same thing about Zimmer and the Vikings. Either case would have been a disaster. I agree about the highest upside but disagree on the low side. I'm going to wait and see but believe he'll either be average or great. No question that he is immature but he is smart enough to adapt if his game doesn't translate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 I think some Brown fans obsess over the past and project it onto the future. Instead of judging Manziel on his own, he has to cure the Browns 31 QB curse too. I see myself as a very level headed knowledgeable football fan. I dont limit my thinking with outdated views. Child please... Yes, objectively our QB history has no bearing. Yes, some here are cautious because of that QB history. They are subjective... so be it. What irks me and others is your, and many of your JM-loving ilk's, insistence that your vision of our QB future is somehow objective. And FYI, I know where my objectivity blind spot is when it comes to QBs. I am biased against running QBs. Especially undersized ones who have issues channeling their competitive urges. I hope the one we picked learns to channel his before his first start or I fear the lessons will come at great price. Quarterbacks drop in the draft for a number of reasons. Example: Aaron Rodgers fell in the draft and has become a top 5 QB in the NFL. Russell Wilson wasnt drafted till the 2nd round and he has been tremendous. As a Cowboys fan, Tony Romo was undrafted and became a franchise QB. Manziel was very high on many boards. I suspect his short stature and unconventional mechanics were what kept him from going higher. Again, past Heisman history failures have zero effect on what JF does in his NFL career. BTW, the Texans are idiots and have no balls. They drafted Savage for fucks sake and announced Fitzpatrick as the starter. (vomit) Just what were some of the many reasons those QBs fell? And just how does a player that is "high on many boards" fall to the 22nd pick? As for the Texans... so much for your objectivity. By most accounts there were 4 players in this draft whose pro potential set themselves apart from the rest: Clowney, Watkins, Mack and Robinson. The overall order varied from list to list, but Clowney topped nearly every one of them. And who did the Texans take? I can think of a lot of words to describe them taking JM at #1 overall... and "ballsy" would not top the list. Houston had a plan. Had MN not jumped up, they may well have planned to tab Teddy B in Rnd 2. They may even have thought JM had a chance to be there as well. Clearly they see Fitz as a veteran placeholder that they hope can manage a revived, run-oriented offense while their defense throttles their opponents. Savage was a 4th round, compensatory flyer on the strongest arm in the draft. How well will it work? Who knows... Most likely their future QB is still in their future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 is there really anything else to talk about now? Jim Brown came out of the closet today lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL_BROWNS_FAN Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Did he not have a nagging shoulder injury that affect his performance? There were a lot of people outside this board including more than a few pro talent evaluators that hung the "potentially fragile" label on JF. Manziel will have to learn how to protect himself. Ah- let me introduce you to Vesna- he of many names- the one and only resident board curmudgeon as we all know as Ghoolie. He's just warming up. Yes, he did have a nagging shoulder injury that caused him to miss 2 or 3 series of downs in 2013. And it was caused by a risky play so hopefully he learned from that to protect himself. It, however, was not serious enough to require surgery. Although he is unquestionably immature, he is also smart enough to learn from his mistakes. He should realize that he doesn't need to carry the team as he did in college because the browns have built a strong defensive team. My biggest concern is his ultra competitiveness but I believe that Shanahan will build an offensive scheme to channel that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 As I said, twice even, I understand the difference between college and NFL. However, I guess I failed to get my point across. People insist upon calling him fragile although he played two complete seasons with no missed games. If I remember correctly he missed one series of downs in 2012 and two or three series in 2013. This was at the same time that the larger QBs for MO, LSU, GA, etc suffered season ending injuries. Not trying to bring up college exploits, but to refute the fragile label, I am not sure we believe he is fragile.....I think we just recognize that he is "slight", and that with his frame he could be subject to injuries when hit awkwardly by 300 pound nasty boys on defense. I mean, he won't have a Ben Roethlisberger type frame to ward off those guys....he will have to use his speed and guile to do it. And, hopefully, you are right.....that his capability to be elusive will make a world of difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Give an example of Manziel leading the Browns from the bench. So now you are arguing that the Haslam/ Pettine stategy has worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 I dont disagree with your general view but i think we have a different definition of what a fan is. I think you can be a fan of a single player. I do think the team can grow on you much like Texas A&M did to me. Anyone who plays fantasy football can probably agree. If you think that somehow makes them less of a fan, then i think you are trying to pigeon hole the term fan. I think some Brown fans obsess over the past and project it onto the future. Instead of judging Manziel on his own, he has to cure the Browns 31 QB curse too. I see myself as a very level headed knowledgeable football fan. I don’t limit my thinking with outdated views. OK, but you are focussed on one single individual...and you only see what the potential of that one individual may be....because you like him. And you are right....I am focussed on rooting for my team....not just for some guy. And to us....who have been here....just see him as another guy......that hopefully won't turn out like the other guys that preceded him. But yes, because we don't have our nostrils so near his anus as you do, we do see things more objectively. We seem him merely as another candidate to be be the one to take the crown. But we also know that there have been candidates before him that have had somewhat similar histories. I mean, we had the Golden Boy from Notre Dame. The guy who won more college football games than anyone else. We had the Red Rifle We had the guy that made the grass in Kentucky blue. So, let's put it this way: JFF has something to prove to us. If he actually does fail like those other false Messiahs, well, unfortuneatly it is something we are used to by now. We are not going to jump off Terminal Tower......but I may have concerns about you....and may want to alert the security forces of the tallest building in Katy TX to keep you off their roof. (Can I assume we are probably talking about a grain silo?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL_BROWNS_FAN Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 I am not sure we believe he is fragile.....I think we just recognize that he is "slight", and that with his frame he could be subject to injuries when hit awkwardly by 300 pound nasty boys on defense. I mean, he won't have a Ben Roethlisberger type frame to ward off those guys....he will have to use his speed and guile to do it. And, hopefully, you are right.....that his capability to be elusive will make a world of difference. I remember seeing a report on draft night about an analysis done on JM that compared his body build against other (larger and NFL successful) QBs. IIRC their analysis showed that because of his body build/musculature ratio he was at a lower risk of injury than the larger QBs. Wish I could provide a link because it was pretty interesting. But that's just computer geeks so what do they know. . Anyway, I guess time will tell. I know it was just college but I think all the AL and LSU defensive players weigh over 300 lbs. Saban is now looking at going smaller to catch future Johnny types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL_BROWNS_FAN Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 (Can I assume we are probably talking about a grain silo?) Can we please stop with the stereotypes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 We are not going to jump off Terminal Tower......but I may have concerns about you....and may want to alert the security forces of the tallest building in Katy TX to keep you off their roof. (Can I assume we are probably talking about a grain silo?) Can we please stop with the stereotypes? i thought it was funny and probably true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Katy is right outside of Houston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 And don't be fooled into thinking he has always been a shotgun QB. His first year was running Mike Sherman's Pro-style i offense with the scout team. Why was Sherman practicing against his own offense? If Haslam had in fact said "you are the backup", it would have been no big deal. Actually eliminating JM from the competition would have been a much bigger deal. ... many people believe that Alabama's defense is the closest you can come to NFL. Closest in this use is only relative to all other college defenses. It says nothing about how close it is to an NFL D. I'm afraid it is far more likely that Hoyer will be hurt. Not at all wanting this to happen but just my opinion. Whomever starts will be more likely to get hurt. But if we are comparing styles, then I do not see how Hoyer is the more likely of the two. Yes, he did have a nagging shoulder injury that caused him to miss 2 or 3 series of downs in 2013. And it was caused by a risky play so hopefully he learned from that to protect himself. It, however, was not serious enough to require surgery. Although he is unquestionably immature, he is also smart enough to learn from his mistakes. He should realize that he doesn't need to carry the team as he did in college because the browns have built a strong defensive team. My biggest concern is his ultra competitiveness but I believe that Shanahan will build an offensive scheme to channel that. I could have written (and actually believe I have written) almost all of your second quote... especially the "ultra competitiveness" bit. Where we differ is in the confidence that he will "realize" or Shanny can "channel". I see his competitiveness being game situation responsive. I also see it as being an essential part of what makes JM special. How can it be harnessed without reducing his impact? How can he survive the recklessness it induces? These opposing questions present the quandary that I see JM presenting. I see the read option being run in mini-camp and I shudder. Even if under orders to hand off every time, the league has pronounced any QB carrying out a fake fair game. For the record I do not regard JM as fragile. But as you ultimately pointed out in your reply to Gip's question, he has played hurt, and in 2013 his hurt diminished his performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL_BROWNS_FAN Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Katy is a suburb of Houston and (not wanting to stereotype) probably has more tall buildings than Cleveland. And I've been to Cleveland for work and visited the R&R HOF . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL_BROWNS_FAN Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Why was Sherman practicing against his own offense?Actually eliminating JM from the competition would have been a much bigger deal.Closest in this use is only relative to all other college defenses. It says nothing about how close it is to an NFL D.Whomever starts will be more likely to get hurt. But if we are comparing styles, then I do not see how Hoyer is the more likely of the two.I could have written (and actually believe I have written) almost all of your second quote... especially the "ultra competitiveness" bit. Where we differ is in the confidence that he will "realize" or Shanny can "channel".I see his competitiveness being game situation responsive. I also see it as being an essential part of what makes JM special.How can it be harnessed without reducing his impact?How can he survive the recklessness it induces?These opposing questions present the quandary that I see JM presenting.I see the read option being run in mini-camp and I shudder. Even if under orders to hand off every time, the league has pronounced any QB carrying out a fake fair game.For the record I do not regard JM as fragile. But as you ultimately pointed out in your reply to Gip's question, he has played hurt, and in 2013 his hurt diminished his performance. The reason I said Hoyer is more likely to be injured is because he has had major knee surgery. It obviously has to be a concern and was the reason given for Mettenberger not going earlier in the draft. I agree with most of what you said. Only time will tell about the "realize" and "channel" parts. In case you haven't noticed I am not one who believes that Johnny is the messiah. I don't believe he will be a bust but also don't know if he'll be a star. Only time will tell. He took a good number of hits from 300+ lb lineman and the shoulder injury occurred when he was diving near the goal line so I'm not that concerned about the play fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 .and may want to alert the security forces of the tallest building in Katy TX to keep you off their roof. (Can I assume we are probably talking about a grain silo?) If it's not the grain silo, it's the water tower: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Can we please stop with the stereotypes? Probably not. They are too ingrained. Besides, do you know what the tallest structure is in the town I grew up in right here in NEO? A grain silo (or the equivalent, it actually held like crushed limestone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Katy is a suburb of Houston and (not wanting to stereotype) probably has more tall buildings than Cleveland. And I've been to Cleveland for work and visited the R&R HOF . Houston has more tall buildings than Cleveland, sure. But I doubt Katy did....errr....does. In fact....sorry dude, but when I google imaged "Katy Texas, tallest structure" this is what I got: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 In fact....sorry dude, but when I google imaged "Katy Texas, tallest structure" this is what I got: I would think a country boy like you would know the difference between a grain silo and a grain elevator... Katy is a suburb of Houston... It is now... 40 years ago when I moved to Houston was not the case. It's called urban spr'all y'all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 The reason I said Hoyer is more likely to be injured is because he has had major knee surgery. It obviously has to be a concern and was the reason given for Mettenberger not going earlier in the draft. I agree with most of what you said. Only time will tell about the "realize" and "channel" parts. In case you haven't noticed I am not one who believes that Johnny is the messiah. I don't believe he will be a bust but also don't know if he'll be a star. Only time will tell. He took a good number of hits from 300+ lb lineman and the shoulder injury occurred when he was diving near the goal line so I'm not that concerned about the play fake. If you didn't see it, Hoyer's ACL injury was a fluke, attempting a really bad slide- he caught his leg awkwardly. Heck, Dan Marino blew out his Achilles playing the Browns way back, and he wasn't even touched. So I can't see Hoyer being proven as particularly injury prone- at least not yet. True that it usually takes at least a year (or more) to come completely back from that sort of injury. See RG III, who tried to come back too soon. However, Hoyer has had several more months to rehab as opposed to Griffin, and he's been doing everything the docs will allow him to do. Plus Hoyer is more of a pocket passer- he only takes off running when he has to, and I'm pretty sure the coaches have told him to dive and not slide anymore. IMO he's no more an injury risk than any other pocket first qb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL_BROWNS_FAN Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 If you didn't see it, Hoyer's ACL injury was a fluke, attempting a really bad slide- he caught his leg awkwardly. Heck, Dan Marino blew out his Achilles playing the Browns way back, and he wasn't even touched. So I can't see Hoyer being proven as particularly injury prone- at least not yet. True that it usually takes at least a year (or more) to come completely back from that sort of injury. See RG III, who tried to come back too soon. However, Hoyer has had several more months to rehab as opposed to Griffin, and he's been doing everything the docs will allow him to do. Plus Hoyer is more of a pocket passer- he only takes off running when he has to, and I'm pretty sure the coaches have told him to dive and not slide anymore. IMO he's no more an injury risk than any other pocket first qb. I wasn't indicating that he is injury prone but that once an injury of this magnitude is sustained, complete recovery is a lengthy process as you indicated. I injured my ankle in an auto accident many years ago and was told by orthopedist at the time that would never be 100%. I went through almost a year of PT, but doc was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 I would think a country boy like you would know the difference between a grain silo and a grain elevator... I am a suburban boy....and I know when I see a grain elevator next to a grain silo...and that is what that is. It is now... 40 years ago when I moved to Houston was not the case. It's called urban spr'all y'all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryfine Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Actually, I hope not. I hope he is much better. FYI, no offense to him because he is an all time favorite, but, Brian Sipe never won a single postseason game for the Browns......and I certainly hope/wish/expect JFF to do better than that. The only Browns QB to ever win a League MVP award. Yeah he wasn't that good. Ozzie lost that PO game against the raiders or he would of had a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibleedbrown Posted June 20, 2014 Report Share Posted June 20, 2014 We had the Red Rifle A cosmic coincidence, but the Red Rifle is Andy Dalton's nickname, who is apparently from Katy, TX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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