USFBrown Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Here is proof JF is putting extra time to get the Browns into the playoffs next year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_rePz04HMU Finally a gig has good at. Acting like a Retard. Shouldn't be too hard for him to get into character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDog Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Here is proof JF is putting extra time to get the Browns into the playoffs next year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_rePz04HMU Fits right in with the idiot role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NGgator60 Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Enlighten us on those attributes. Sure. - Quick release - Arm strength - Speed - Agility - Intelligence (if you believe that the Wonderlic has any predictive power?) At the onset, you dont need to be Bill Polian to objectively realize that Manziel can make all of the throws that an NFL quarterback needs to make. Manziel's harshest critics have never questioned his ability to quickly spin the football downfield. We also know that Johnny has reasonable mobility and athleticism of which defenses will need to account for on some level. Unfortunately, these abilities and a pulse might be enough to get you drafted by Al Davis or the starting gig in Chicago but it's all for naught if you cannot read a defense and/or deliver the ball accurately. Charlie Casserly, well respected within NFL circles and a recent hire of the Jets (and a former professor of mine), had been vocal for quite some time that he felt Manziel has the physical attributes to be a successful quarterback but his challenge will be in developing the pocket presence necessary to thrive within the confines of an NFL offense. Does this critique ring familiar to any of us that watched Manziel this season? Johnny enters a game against Buffalo in relief of Hoyer and rifles an otherwise ill-advised pass to Dray before capping off the drive with a touchdown run. In one drive we saw the physical promise of Manziel but we also got a glimpse of the mental shortcomings that would plague the next six quarters of his play. Such is life as a rookie quarterback in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDawg31 Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Sure. - Quick release - Arm strength - Speed - Agility - Intelligence (if you believe that the Wonderlic has any predictive power?) At the onset, you dont need to be Bill Polian to objectively realize that Manziel can make all of the throws that an NFL quarterback needs to make. Manziel's harshest critics have never questioned his ability to quickly spin the football downfield. We also know that Johnny has reasonable mobility and athleticism of which defenses will need to account for on some level. Unfortunately, these abilities and a pulse might be enough to get you drafted by Al Davis or the starting gig in Chicago but it's all for naught if you cannot read a defense and/or deliver the ball accurately. Charlie Casserly, well respected within NFL circles and a recent hire of the Jets (and a former professor of mine), had been vocal for quite some time that he felt Manziel has the physical attributes to be a successful quarterback but his challenge will be in developing the pocket presence necessary to thrive within the confines of an NFL offense. Does this critique ring familiar to any of us that watched Manziel this season? Johnny enters a game against Buffalo in relief of Hoyer and rifles an otherwise ill-advised pass to Dray before capping off the drive with a touchdown run. In one drive we saw the physical promise of Manziel but we also got a glimpse of the mental shortcomings that would plague the next six quarters of his play. Such is life as a rookie quarterback in the NFL. Somebody get Casserly on the phone and see if he will give us a 5th round pick for JFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Fingers Farmer Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Sure. - Quick release - Arm strength - Speed - Agility - Intelligence (if you believe that the Wonderlic has any predictive power?) At the onset, you dont need to be Bill Polian to objectively realize that Manziel can make all of the throws that an NFL quarterback needs to make. Manziel's harshest critics have never questioned his ability to quickly spin the football downfield. We also know that Johnny has reasonable mobility and athleticism of which defenses will need to account for on some level. Unfortunately, these abilities and a pulse might be enough to get you drafted by Al Davis or the starting gig in Chicago but it's all for naught if you cannot read a defense and/or deliver the ball accurately. Charlie Casserly, well respected within NFL circles and a recent hire of the Jets (and a former professor of mine), had been vocal for quite some time that he felt Manziel has the physical attributes to be a successful quarterback but his challenge will be in developing the pocket presence necessary to thrive within the confines of an NFL offense. Does this critique ring familiar to any of us that watched Manziel this season? Johnny enters a game against Buffalo in relief of Hoyer and rifles an otherwise ill-advised pass to Dray before capping off the drive with a touchdown run. In one drive we saw the physical promise of Manziel but we also got a glimpse of the mental shortcomings that would plague the next six quarters of his play. Such is life as a rookie quarterback in the NFL. Quick release - Nope Arm strength - Average Speed - Faster than a statue not as fast a premier running QB's Agility - Above average for pocket QB, average for running QB Intelligence - Football IQ is way below average, Can't read defenses, Makes extremely poor decisions after the snap, doesn't put the work in during the week. Who cares what his Wonderlic score was, Ryan Fitzpatrick has one or the highest Wonderlic scores ever. You want him? Gross The Critics have questioned every aspect of Manziel's game and whether it would translate to the NFL. So far the critics have been 100% accurate. If Manziel is being drafted by Al then something went horribly wrong Al's league is dead. Charlie Casserly, ROFLMAO If I wanted to fuck a team over for a decade plus he'd the first GM on my list. Three plus years of having Charlie as GM will cost your organization ten years to recover from. I know after Charlie screwed over the Redskins and Texans he tried to get a job with the NFL front office. I guess fucking up one team at a time was no longer a challenge to him. Charlie has always been below average at evaluating talent and absolutely horrible "maybe worst ever" in evaluating QB's. Look at his track record. 1990 Gary Conklin 4th round 1992 Chris Hakel 4th round 1994 Heath Shuler 3rd pick 1st round 1994 Gus Frerotte 7th round 2002 David Carr 1st pick 1st round 2003 Dave Ragone 3rd round 2003 Drew Henson 6th round 2004 B.J. Symons 7th round Don't get me wrong I actually love Charlie and I'm happy he's going to the Jet's. I enjoy playing the game within the game and no other GM has made me more money. However if I was an owner and Charlie told me he wanted x QB I'd immediately take that QB off my board. I'd be fuck Charlie want's this guy so you know he won't pan out....Next Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 The Brown on Hard Knocks next season will be must watch TV. I didn't think they chose a team yet. Am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NGgator60 Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Quick release - Nope Arm strength - Average Speed - Faster than a statue not as fast a premier running QB's Agility - Above average for pocket QB, average for running QB Intelligence - Football IQ is way below average, Can't read defenses, Makes extremely poor decisions after the snap, doesn't put the work in during the week. Who cares what his Wonderlic score was, Ryan Fitzpatrick has one or the highest Wonderlic scores ever. You want him? Gross The Critics have questioned every aspect of Manziel's game and whether it would translate to the NFL. So far the critics have been 100% accurate. If Manziel is being drafted by Al then something went horribly wrong Al's league is dead. Charlie Casserly, ROFLMAO If I wanted to fuck a team over for a decade plus he'd the first GM on my list. Three plus years of having Charlie as GM will cost your organization ten years to recover from. I know after Charlie screwed over the Redskins and Texans he tried to get a job with the NFL front office. I guess fucking up one team at a time was no longer a challenge to him. Charlie has always been below average at evaluating talent and absolutely horrible "maybe worst ever" in evaluating QB's. Look at his track record. 1990 Gary Conklin 4th round 1992 Chris Hakel 4th round 1994 Heath Shuler 3rd pick 1st round 1994 Gus Frerotte 7th round 2002 David Carr 1st pick 1st round 2003 Dave Ragone 3rd round 2003 Drew Henson 6th round 2004 B.J. Symons 7th round Don't get me wrong I actually love Charlie and I'm happy he's going to the Jet's. I enjoy playing the game within the game and no other GM has made me more money. However if I was an owner and Charlie told me he wanted x QB I'd immediately take that QB off my board. I'd be fuck Charlie want's this guy so you know he won't pan out....Next Casserly sure does have a spotty history drafting and *developing* quarterbacks but I was referencing his comments because he was among the "analysts" (loose term) more critical of Manziel while some others including Gruden, McShay, Warner, Kiper, etc seemed mesmerized by Johnny's college highlights prior to the season. Sure, certain talking heads claimed that his arm was average but it seemed to me that the majority of prognosticators were comfortable ceding the point that Johnny could throw the ball. The main criticism was and remains to be that Manziel entered the League with almost no discernable pocket presence and may lack the committment to self-improvement. Since the Bengals game its become en vogue to claim that Manziel is simply the latest in a line of scatbacks masquarading as a quarterback but lest we forget that he was regarded as having the physical skillset necessary to succeed as a passing quarterback. This was not a Tim Tebow redux. Manziel is able to throw a downfield pass without skipping the ball five yards beyond his target (insert hyberbolic joke here). Additionally, I cited his Wonderlic score because it reflects that Johnny has some reasonable semblance of intelligence and at least has the ability to take something seriously related to his profession. Sure, its admittably the biggest reach of any quantifiable data collected on a prospect, but short of having his academic transcript released I dont know of many other ways of which to help ascertain the intellectual capacity of a football player. Fitzpatrick did indeed dominate the Wonderlic and it's reflected by his almost universal regard as one of the smarter quarterbacks in football, of whom has managed to parlay his intelligence and poor arm into an NFL career. The hope with Johnny is that he might develop into a player that can marry what I consider to be above-average physical abilities with the intelligence necessary to read NFL defenses. It will be a process, as it has been for every rookie quarterback. I dont think that there is much debate that Johnny Manziel underwhelmed in his seven quarters of football as a 21-22 year old. I dont think that there is much debate that Brian Hoyer was the best option behind center for the Browns in 2014. What I will dispute is that Manzie did not demonstrate any NFL talent and I'm rather confident that Pettine, Farmer, and the front office know better than to operate under the ridiculous assumption that young talent does not improve and mature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NGgator60 Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Charlie Casserly, ROFLMAO If I wanted to fuck a team over for a decade plus he'd the first GM on my list. Three plus years of having Charlie as GM will cost your organization ten years to recover from. I know after Charlie screwed over the Redskins and Texans he tried to get a job with the NFL front office. I guess fucking up one team at a time was no longer a challenge to him. Charlie has always been below average at evaluating talent and absolutely horrible "maybe worst ever" in evaluating QB's. Look at his track record. 1990 Gary Conklin 4th round 1992 Chris Hakel 4th round 1994 Heath Shuler 3rd pick 1st round 1994 Gus Frerotte 7th round 2002 David Carr 1st pick 1st round 2003 Dave Ragone 3rd round 2003 Drew Henson 6th round 2004 B.J. Symons 7th round Don't get me wrong I actually love Charlie and I'm happy he's going to the Jet's. I enjoy playing the game within the game and no other GM has made me more money. However if I was an owner and Charlie told me he wanted x QB I'd immediately take that QB off my board. I'd be fuck Charlie want's this guy so you know he won't pan out....Next As an aside....if Casserly ever went missing, David Carr should be the first person that they come to speak with. David Carr was sacked 76 times his rookie season...SEVENTY SIX times. He was sacked 68 times just a few seasons later. To put that into context, Brian Hoyer was sacked 18 times this year. I really wonder if Carr could've actually developed into a solid NFL quarterback if he hadn't become shell-shocked in Houston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Really well written... doesn't make it persuasive, but it's really well written. Polian, who is no Casserly, liked Manziel. That's undeniable. But Bill always said that he did not know whether Johnny is a "16-game, NFL QB". So far he's not even a two-game. Not yet. Hard Knocks wanted the Browns this past season but couldnt because Pettine was a 1st year head coach. They are exempt. Playoff teams are also exempt. Browns cant escape this time! True... can't escape this season, but if another team wants the gig (for some reason), they take volunteers. Actually Hard Knocks could be good for us... Johnny could get his airtime at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Sometimes I make myself want to believe Manziel can be an NFL quarterback and I look at the video of him in the Alabama game where A & M pulled out the upset. The thing that stands out to me is his speed in scrambling. In the little we have seen of him in the NFL he doesn't look so fast which is probably due to the speed of the defensive players in the NFL as compared to college. I also am not sure how many hits he can take in the NFL without injury when he is scrambling. He went out in short order against the Panthers. Everything I have read is that he has a capable NFL arm.I am concerned his apparent drinking problem is affecting his judgment and lack of performance on the field. He doesn't seem to get he is on the verge of a quick exit in the NFL and needs to get it together quickly. He already is getting a reputation of being like Eddy Haskell of Leave it to Beaver fame. That is he knows the right words to say but his actions aren't lining up with his words and in fact seem to be the direct opposite of what he is publicly saying. He is getting great advice from Pettine and Farmer I just hope he will listen to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 college speed and nfl speed are two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 On the speed for sure. I would just like to see JM get his head into the game, give 100 percent and see what he is or isn't capable of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 On the speed for sure. I would just like to see JM get his head into the game, give 100 percent and see what he is or isn't capable of. yes, but if he isn't ready then the browns are just treading water waiting for the kid to stay afloat. keep him on the roster and wait to see or trade him while he actually has some value? one more fuckup and he's either cut or traded with little to no value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Does this critique ring familiar to any of us that watched Manziel this season? Johnny enters a game against Buffalo in relief of Hoyer and rifles an otherwise ill-advised pass to Dray before capping off the drive with a touchdown run. In one drive we saw the physical promise of Manziel but we also got a glimpse of the mental shortcomings that would plague the next six quarters of his play. Such is life as a rookie quarterback in the NFL. I noticed the JFF advocates constantly make mention of his 1st drive against the Bills, but hardly make mention of his 2nd drive in that game. Why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDawg31 Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 I noticed the JFF advocates constantly make mention of his 1st drive against the Bills, but hardly make mention of his 2nd drive in that game. Why is that? Is that the one where he was making snow angels in the end zone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 college speed and nfl speed are two different things. Everyone keeps saying this. But all NFL players come from College. So college speed does play a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 college speed means that there might be 2 or 3 defenders on the team you are playing against that are fast (or really what they mean is NFL caliber). in the nfl everyone is fast because only those nfl caliber players start in the nfl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 What I got out of that B/R article was that Johnny was able to HoneyDick certain NFL front offices and owners. Obviously that would very much include Haslam - hook, line and sinker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 So says this guy. I tend to agree with him. I hope I am proven wrong but I just don't see a starting NFL QB, on the field or off, from what I have seen. Just like Quinn and Weeden, he just doesn't feel like a guy who is going to do great things in the NFL. Again ... hope I wrong. (Or they trade him ... then I hope I'm right) http://chronicle.northcoastnow.com/2015/01/05/browns-analysis-petrak-labels-manziel-bust/ I expect Johnny Manziel to be the Week 1 starter for the Browns in 2015. It’s the most likely scenario for a guy chosen with the 22nd pick on a quarterback-needy team owned by a huge fan of Manziel. I would dump Manziel at the first opportunity if I were owner Jimmy Haslam and general manager Ray Farmer. After eight months with the Browns, it’s time for Johnny Football to become Johnny Waiver Wire. Or preferably, Johnny Trade Bait. I agree with those who say six quarters as the starter isn’t enough time to adequately judge Manziel. But any decision to part with Manziel — via trade or release — goes well beyond the small sample size on Sundays. He isn’t talented enough or dedicated enough to succeed at the game’s most important position. And I don’t see that changing. Let’s start on the field. Manziel looked overwhelmed, managing only a field goal in his time as starter. More disturbing was how pedestrian Manziel appeared physically. First-round picks are supposed to be the most gifted of the gifted. Manziel isn’t. We can debate whether his 5-foot-11¾ frame is an issue. What’s clear to me is his vaunted athleticism didn’t translate from Texas A&M to the NFL. The arm strength is average, the speed unimpressive. Manziel can zip the ball, but only if the circumstances are perfect: clean pocket, time and room to set his feet and torque his body. Those variables rarely happen in the NFL. A quarterback needs a strong enough arm to make throws on the move and in traffic. I saw plenty of Manziel in training camp to get an accurate read of his arm. What wasn’t evident until the regular season was how he couldn’t affect the game with his legs. He made the nice 10-yard touchdown run versus Buffalo when the middle of the field was wide open. But with the Bengals and Panthers prepared for him, he looked slow and did nothing on the ground. The defensive ends were as fast as he was, and the linebackers faster. Farmer disagrees. At least publicly. In his season wrapup news conference last week, Farmer said he still expects big things out of Manziel. He still believes he can be a “solid starter,” and that the skills evident when he became the first freshman to win the Heisman Trophy will resurface in the NFL. I don’t see it. I never liked Manziel as a prospect. Obviously Haslam and Farmer felt differently before the draft, which is why I expect Manziel to get another opportunity. He doesn’t deserve it. As bad as Manziel’s been on the field, he’s been worse off of it. He’s too immature for a position where leadership is critical. Manziel sold Haslam and Farmer on the notion he had grown up after numerous slipups at Texas A&M. He hasn’t changed. His coaches and teammates praise his competitiveness, but it can’t compete with his cravings for celebrity. Even when times are rough — bad play, late-night fight, missed treatment — he desires the spotlight. He can’t stand being out of the headlines or fading into the background, even for a couple of days. A quarterback can’t think like that. He must be motivated by winning. Manziel’s priorities are flawed. He’s also lying to himself, his teammates and the organization when he says he’s learned from his mistakes. That was obvious in the last couple of weeks. Manziel knew his rookie year had been a disappointment, so he pleaded in a pair of interviews to be the starter next season. He admitted he needed to take the job more seriously. Four days later he overslept after partying the night before, missed treatment for his hamstring and was fined. He again apologized in the media, this time on the day after the season. He sounded truly conflicted. He realized he continues to mess up, but seemed powerless to stop the cycle. The promises to shape up rang hollow yet again when only hours later he was shown partying in Miami in a video on social media. The next couple of days he posted his own pictures of him on the beach and out at night. The Browns should no longer ignore the pattern of behavior. Each incident can be rationalized. But put them together, and they reveal a quarterback who can’t handle the responsibilities of the job. How can the Browns trust that Manziel will finally get it? That he’ll mature before next season, despite having the next few months to himself? Coach Mike Pettine surely can’t trust Manziel. Especially with a roster of veterans who demand, and deserve, a quarterback who’s as committed as they are. I’m ready to call Manziel a bust. It’s time to see if the Cowboys or Jets or another team looking for attention is willing to give up a third- or fourth-round pick in the hopes he can recapture the magic he had in college. The Browns should be smart enough to know that won’t happen. Contact Scott Petrak at 329-7253 or spetrak@chroniclet.com. Like him on Facebook and follow him on Twitter @scottpetrak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I hope that pint sized fruit proves everyone wrong for the sake of the Browns. I just don't see it happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Really? Do we need this now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 next season will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 "I never liked Manziel as a prospect." That tainted the article which is another in a long line of self serving I told you so's. One thing I think he failed to get a real handle on is JF's missing meetings. If I'm the Browns FO I insist to JF that if he wants a future in this organization, then he will be required to attend alcohol education classes. You can do this without calling someone an alcoholic since true ones go right to denial anyway. But you can insist he learn that if alcohol has caused you problems such as oversleeping, failure to set alarms, missing work or rehab. etc., then you have a problem with alcohol. It is much harder to deny it has caused you problems than it is to deny alcoholism. It's a tactic I took often with people in a 30 year counseling career. Best thing is you use no labels such as "addict", "alcoholic" etc. and stick to the facts of what problems it has caused in a person's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 The off-the-field stuff reeks of immaturity but I am not close enough to the situation to make a judgment and would rather not rely on media reports and social media, I prefer to give the kid the benefit of the doubt when it comes to growing up and taking the job more seriously. But THIS is exactly what I saw too: Manziel looked overwhelmed, managing only a field goal in his time as starter. More disturbing was how pedestrian Manziel appeared physically. First-round picks are supposed to be the most gifted of the gifted. Manziel isn’t. We can debate whether his 5-foot-11¾ frame is an issue. What’s clear to me is his vaunted athleticism didn’t translate from Texas A&M to the NFL. The arm strength is average, the speed unimpressive. Manziel can zip the ball, but only if the circumstances are perfect: clean pocket, time and room to set his feet and torque his body. Those variables rarely happen in the NFL. A quarterback needs a strong enough arm to make throws on the move and in traffic. I saw plenty of Manziel in training camp to get an accurate read of his arm. What wasn’t evident until the regular season was how he couldn’t affect the game with his legs. He made the nice 10-yard touchdown run versus Buffalo when the middle of the field was wide open. But with the Bengals and Panthers prepared for him, he looked slow and did nothing on the ground. The defensive ends were as fast as he was, and the linebackers faster. Physically, he looked very pedestrian to me. Beyond worrisome. Like we drafted a guy in the first round that should be playing in Canada. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 The right quarterback pick in the last draft would have put the club in a really good position right now. As it is we again have a huge quarterback issue going into next season. We can't afford what it would cost to pick up Mariota, we have to improve both our offensive and defensive lines. It would have been nice to have seen JM taking this season more seriously and to have worked harder to improve his play. Connor Shaw looked more confident and in control of the offense than JM and Shaw never had the opportunity all season to work with the offense like JM. Hoyer may be gone soon and I personally see him as our best hope for a good season this year. The other options I see as a lot less promising of drafting a QB and the time it would take to develop, Manziel living up to his hype, or a bringing in a veteran quarterback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Don't care right now. Glad the season is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdl15 Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 X fortunately I think the Browns have a little too much pride to realize this.if the only two quarterbacks on the Browns roster was Brian Hoyer and Conner Shaw with the same record attitudes towards this team would be much more positive. plus the Browns would have way more options going forward at the quarterback position. they could re-sign Hoyer and have the ability to draft any quarterback in any round of the draft and people would be pumped. unfortunately they're going to let the guy that is obviously 100% better than Johnny Manziel walk and probably rig free agency by bringing in a veteran thatin their own mind justify starting Menzel week 1. believe it or not I am NOT looking forward to the 2015 Brown's campaign. and that in itself is complete bullshit after the steps this team made this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Thread merge alert! Seriously, Z... nothing new here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Who knows. The Johnny train may not have derailed, but it is wobbling for sure. Guess we will find out by the end of August at the earliest, end of Oct. at the latest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Thread merge alert! Seriously, Z... nothing new here. Just trying to get a growl out of Westside Steve, but he must have a gig. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.