Jonathan Paul Manziel

[evan_aggie]

I'm not a life long Browns fan, so of course I have no long-term dog in this fight like those that suffered for years of misery with piss-poor teams over the last decade+.

 

I wanted to make a few comments.

 

What you are seeing from Brian Hoyer is what you saw from him in college. Brian had shown his ceiling years ago and people (Browns coaching) chose to believe that he'd be a good game manager.

 

Look at his MSU college stats. He had a great year in 2007 and still managed just 59.3% completion. He regressed his following year.

 

**NOTE***

Not sure why, but the table I pasted from wiki showed up as a normal format and was only converted after posting the message...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Hoyer

 

Of the meaningful snaps he took, I look to AZ where had 53 attempts. Again, the guy is around 56% completion.

 

 

Yes, I'm a Johnny homer. I had the privilege to watch just about every game he played in (home and away) while at Texas A&M. The kid is electric and has incredible accuracy while throwing on the run. But more than just that, it is his attitude which is somehow positively infectious to a team. Teammates playing alongside Johnny believe in the kid. They knew that he was going to give 110% to win the game and it pissed him off like no other if he came up short. It genuinely pisses him off and he hates to lose ala Tom Brady. When the defense would stink (which was often), he'd march down the sidelines and fire the team up. He'd tell them to just get one more stop and he'd win the game. A&M was a mediocre to poor team. We should have lost to Arkansas early in the season. We were playing in AT&T Stadium and down multiple touch downs. I watched Johnny go to the sidelines and pump up the team. They responded to him. They rallied back and somehow won that game in overtime down 14 pts in the 4th quarter.

 

Again, I don't know what it is about this guy, but I fully believe the vets on the Browns team will eventually come around. He is a fiery piss-ant of a competitor and somehow he elevates everyone else's play around him. It's like they want to go out there and be every bit of a bad ass as they can. Of course Johnny wouldn't win every game he is in, but I honestly think Manziel would have won vs the Colts, which probably isn't hard to say given what everyone saw on the offensive side of the ball Sunday.

[letsgojackets]

When has Haden gone?

 

Google Joe Haden and then Cavs. Then click on pictures.

 

 

Manziel vs playbook? I don't understand what you're saying has to do with my quote?

[Tour2ma]

Tour,

 

" Before I address this tidbit, would you confirm that it reads as you intended it to? "If they're so stupid as to WANT Hoyer, why should Johnny do anything more than what he has to do." Because as I read it you are more than OK with JM setting the terms and doing the minimum."

 

I'm saying that it is plausible for Johnny to be pissed and upset that the "veterans" and "coaches" want Hoyer to start despite the fact that Johnny was more productive in one series than Hoyer has been in weeks.

 

If the decision to then start Hoyer caused Johnny to only show up on time to work, and not 5 hours early, who could blame him?

Got it now and thanks for the clarification as it saved me a(nother) mini-rant...

Also going to save the whole "one week thing" for later as well. It's getting a lot of use now and needs to be examined... but later.

 

As for your question: Yes, we all could blame him, but the only one he has to worry about is his HC.

 

I'm trying to think of another term that "pouting" to describe the JM reaction you describe, but I can't so it'll have to do, implied immaturity connotations and all.

 

Here's a hypothetical that may apply to what you suggest may be occurring:

• A minimum expectation of a visible activity is 6 and an employee has routinely done it at between an 8 and 9 level for so long that it has become "expected"... and not just by Management, but also co-workers.
• Then the person has a "performance review". All know that the review took place and the some result of the meeting, but only those in the room know the specific details of what was said in the meeting.
• Following the review the person starts to post 6 after 6, the minimum.

What would you expect management's reaction would be? the co-worker's reaction?

 

Rhetorical questions perhaps, but one result that IMO would not warrant inclusion in any list of potential is endear himself even more to all levels of the organization.

[The Cysko Kid]

Jimmy's not stupid. He was burned last year chasing the bright, shiny HC candidate. He is not going there again anytime soon. Especially not Jim Harbaugh, whose shine has faded recently in case you had not noticed.

 

Haslam hired Farmer to select the personnel, Pettine to run the team and Scheiner to run the business. He's a CEO/ Owner who shows every sign of being a great, organization manager. The greats select capable people, empower them to do their jobs and hold them accountable to agreed, measurable metrics. They do not "micromanage".

 

You're thinking of Jerry Jones.

Nope that's jerrah. I'm thinking of jimmah

[tml1138]

Assumptions galore, so I'll add mine...

 

They drafted Manziel knowing what type of character he has.

 

If they didn't like it, they shouldn't have drafted him.

 

If they didn't like it, yet thought they could change him or he would eventually change (i.e. mature), they'd better be willing to pay the consequences if/when it doesn't pan out the way they hoped. But like WSS said, thanks for punishing all of us.

 

If they didn't like it, yet ultimately don't care what he does off-field, and simply hope he wins games (when they feel he's ready), then ok. Most logical choice to me is this one. They thought Hoyer gave them the best chance to win yesterday, not Manziel because to them he's shown he isn't ready.

 

That leaves one last question. Do they think his off-field behavior affects how fast his ramp-up time is to becoming ready, by their standards? IMO, the most talented people need less time to prepare than the average talented ones. Hoyer probably needs to put in extra hours of work to perform well, as opposed to Manziel that does not, if he's the talent they think he is.

 

One more issue then comes to mind. If Manziel is the world-beater QB and doesn't have to work at it 100% all the time, what happens when he has a bad game? He's human, it's going to happen. He might get blamed for not working hard enough. And he'd better be prepared for that if he's going to do the bare minimum.

 

The only answer I can come up with is the coaches should learn who their players are, as people as well as athletes. Then set rules and standards for them that they must meet. If they do more than what's expected of them, great. If they do the bare minimum, that's fine too as long as they perform well and do what is expected of them on the field. If they fall short, and it's found due to their work-life balance, tighten up those rules and standards.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

^ This.

[letsgojackets]

Assumptions galore, so I'll add mine...

 

They drafted Manziel knowing what type of character he has.

 

If they didn't like it, they shouldn't have drafted him.

 

If they didn't like it, yet thought they could change him or he would eventually change (i.e. mature), they'd better be willing to pay the consequences if/when it doesn't pan out the way they hoped. But like WSS said, thanks for punishing all of us.

 

If they didn't like it, yet ultimately don't care what he does off-field, and simply hope he wins games (when they feel he's ready), then ok. Most logical choice to me is this one. They thought Hoyer gave them the best chance to win yesterday, not Manziel because to them he's shown he isn't ready.

 

That leaves one last question. Do they think his off-field behavior affects how fast his ramp-up time is to becoming ready, by their standards? IMO, the most talented people need less time to prepare than the average talented ones. Hoyer probably needs to put in extra hours of work to perform well, as opposed to Manziel that does not, if he's the talent they think he is.

 

One more issue then comes to mind. If Manziel is the world-beater QB and doesn't have to work at it 100% all the time, what happens when he has a bad game? He's human, it's going to happen. He might get blamed for not working hard enough. And he'd better be prepared for that if he's going to do the bare minimum.

 

The only answer I can come up with is the coaches should learn who their players are, as people as well as athletes. Then set rules and standards for them that they must meet. If they do more than what's expected of them, great. If they do the bare minimum, that's fine too as long as they perform well and do what is expected of them on the field. If they fall short, and it's found due to their work-life balance, tighten up those rules and standards.

^This

[Chicopee John]

I'd be less surprised to see pettine out in the cold than johnny.

If Pettine is out in the cold and Harbaugh is not acquired in a Trade (unlikely), the Browns might as well hire Ghoolie as their Head Coach.

 

Who, in their right mind, would want to get mixed up with such a mixed up organization that hires HCs du Jour?

 

Time will tell but, arguably, the FO screwed up last year's draft.

 

Did the GM screw up the HC hire? Too early to tell, but it is way, way too early to condemn Pettine.

[Opal312]

What time are the players supposed to arrive at the stadium? Isn't it 11:00 am. So they were mad that he was on time.

Hoyer camped out on the fifty yard line in his Eagle Scout pup tent. Then he rubbed two sticks together and made a fire for the fish he caught with his bare hands on Lake Erie. It was raining so hard it flooded the field so Hoyer, while walking on water, parted the flood and dried the field with one big exhale. Afterward he knitted some sweaters for the offensive line while he was dictating his memoirs about life as a backup quarterback. Before day break, he took the fish he caught and fed all the homeless people on Chester Avenue before returning to his pup tent on the fifty yard line.

[bbedward]

What time are the players supposed to arrive at the stadium? Isn't it 11:00 am. So they were mad that he was on time.

Hoyer camped out on the fifty yard line in his Eagle Scout pup tent. Then he rubbed two sticks together and made a fire for the fish he caught with his bare hands on Lake Erie. It was raining so hard it flooded the field so Hoyer, while walking on water, parted the flood and dried the field with one big exhale. Afterward he knitted some sweaters for the offensive line while he was dictating his memoirs about life as a backup quarterback. Before day break, he took the fish he caught and fed all the homeless people on Chester Avenue before returning to his pup tent on the fifty yard line.

I suspect it's more media stuff, I'm sure they liked that hoyer was early but I'm also sure they didn't like his play.

[evan_aggie]

One more note:

 

Pagano came out and said they were disappointed when they found out Hoyer was starting as they thought he'd be the tougher matchup. That is completely garbage.

 

There were 5-6 times that the WRs were covered and the pocket started to collapse. There were massive running lanes and you could see 20+ yards of green grass to move. Johnny would have tucked the ball and run in those situations. I feel that the Colts would have had to keep an extra defender in the middle accounting for him. That is to the offense's advantage IMO.

 

I'm not a fan of the read-option either, fyi. I think that is a way to get a QB killed. I'm simply stating that the Colts gave Hoyer lots of room to run because they knew he couldn't. Manziel opens up that dual threat.

[tml1138]

What time are the players supposed to arrive at the stadium? Isn't it 11:00 am. So they were mad that he was on time.

Hoyer camped out on the fifty yard line in his Eagle Scout pup tent. Then he rubbed two sticks together and made a fire for the fish he caught with his bare hands on Lake Erie. It was raining so hard it flooded the field so Hoyer, while walking on water, parted the flood and dried the field with one big exhale. Afterward he knitted some sweaters for the offensive line while he was dictating his memoirs about life as a backup quarterback. Before day break, he took the fish he caught and fed all the homeless people on Chester Avenue before returning to his pup tent on the fifty yard line.

Even if Hoyer was Jesus, I say start Johnny next week. But then I'd probably find myself as Satan's new sex toy.

[TexasAg1969]

Good, thoughtful post, DH... disagree with much of it (shocker), but doesn't mean I can't appreciate it.

 

Basically you're OK with JM doing as he likes, so long as he wins games? How many games will you tolerate losing per season due to game prep not up to NFL standards?

 

Game prep may well be at the core of Pettine's now clear reluctance to even consider starting JM. It's also at the core of being a pro...

 

Football is JM's job now... not a student activity.

 

Wow, that's a leap! So now he doesn't game prep properly? That appears to be your conclusion. Are you sure you don't want to reword or clarify that?

 

 

 

Opal312-you need a post script on that-Then he went out and fucked his team with well prepared, but poorly executed, QB play.

[Tour2ma]

Psst you mentioned Bernie Kosar among your list of teetotaler choirboys... Just saying.

Bernie drank during his playing days with us? Seriously... I'm asking.

 

Wow Johnny is a real piece of shit. You got me Mudfly.

Sarcasm followed but incredulity when Mud fails to take a subsequent post seriously... Nice defense mechanism you got there.

 

Nobody is really suggesting that he's neglected game prep have they? Maybe he should be in Berea at 2 a.m. With the coaching staff? And since that's your biggest gripe apparently game prep aint everything since Brian Hoyer has kind of set the high-water mark for that, right?

Has any coach come out and publicly said JFF is not studying enough. Maybe Shanny's offense is really hard to learn? Or maybe we have some bitter geriatrics that don't like the way he "acts". He's not old school enough I guess. This board has to have the record for the amount of insiders that know the ins and outs of the team and staff.

Lumping these quotes together as I am still new to this "fanboy" thing and may not have it down yet...

 

What do we know:

- Hoyer has played badly of late. Six games and counting by some estimates I've read here.

- Pettine places emphasis on competition during the week.

- Competitions occur on the practice fields and in the film rooms.

- Hoyer has started every game to date.

 

Can we not infer that Hoyer is beating JM soundly during the week? I think so... I think you can infer JM's lack of preparedness from the clear reluctance to play him. Be it playbook or reading D's or any combo of the two.

 

As far as prescribing the actions for JM to win the week? Sorry, guys, can't do that... not even if I mustered all the wisdom of my advanced age. That would take true "insider knowledge" of what is occurring behind closed doors and not just a logical examination of what is public knowledge.

 

Beyond "griping" now Steve, just rationalizing a potential outcome that, BTW, I no longer support. Not as of 12:53 CDT Sunday... Didn't you get the memo?

[Aggie Brown fan]

Johnny's game prep is so bad, he out-produced 4 weeks of Hoyer with ONE DRIVE vs. Buffalo.

[evan_aggie]

Johnny's game prep is so bad, he out-produced 4 weeks of Hoyer with ONE DRIVE vs. Buffalo.

[Tour2ma]

Google Joe Haden and then Cavs. Then click on pictures.

Manziel vs playbook? I don't understand what you're saying has to do with my quote?

As in JM v the playbook... a competition he lost. Did his loss not hurt the team?

 

Damn... that google machine is cool...

Got the pics... especially like this one of Joe and his chaperone...

 

[Tour2ma]

I'm not a life long Browns fan, so of course I have no long-term dog in this fight like those that suffered for years of misery with piss-poor teams over the last decade+.

 

I wanted to make a few comments.

Welcome to the party...

[DieHardBrownsFan]

As in JM v the playbook... a competition he lost. Did his loss not hurt the team?

 

Damn... that google machine is cool...

Got the pics... especially like this one of Joe and his chaperone...

 

Haden looks buzzed.

[letsgojackets]

As in JM v the playbook... a competition he lost. Did his loss not hurt the team?

 

 

I was under the assumption we were seeing what we had in Hoyer and let JFF sit. But you know everything so I'll let you handle it big guy.

[Tour2ma]

^ This.

^This

Ditto... kumbaya moment?

 

Even if Hoyer was Jesus, I say start Johnny next week. But then I'd probably find myself as Satan's new sex toy.

lol...

[Aggie Brown fan]

" What do we know: - Hoyer has played badly of late. Six games and counting by some estimates I've read here. - Pettine places emphasis on competition during the week. - Competitions occur on the practice fields and in the film rooms. - Hoyer has started every game to date.

 

Can we not infer that Hoyer is beating JM soundly during the week? I think so... I think you can infer JM's lack of preparedness from the clear reluctance to play him. Be it playbook or reading D's or any combo of the two."

 

NO, THIS SHOULD NOT BE INFERRED!

 

It's the opposite.

 

Paraphrasing

Pettine: Well, Johnny played well, provided a spark, got a td against Buffalo, but we're 7-5 with (in spite of) Hoyer, and still in the playoff hunt.

 

All I've heard is that Manziel is getting better every day and even causes problems for 1st team defense when he's scout team qb.

 

After the debacle of "Hoyer gives us the best chance to beat Indy", how can you infer anything logical about the qb controversy

[Tour2ma]

Johnny's game prep is so bad, he out-produced 4 weeks of Hoyer with ONE DRIVE vs. Buffalo.

When you want to do a serious breakdown of that ONE DRIVE, start a new thread.

 

Wow, that's a leap! So now he doesn't game prep properly? That appears to be your conclusion. Are you sure you don't want to reword or clarify that?

Sure, Ag... especially since I already have:

 

What do we know:

- Hoyer has played badly of late. Six games and counting by some estimates I've read here.

- Pettine places emphasis on competition during the week.

- Competitions occur on the practice fields and in the film rooms.

- Hoyer has started every game to date.

 

Can we not infer that Hoyer is beating JM soundly during the week? I think so... I think you can infer JM's lack of preparedness from the clear reluctance to play him. Be it playbook or reading D's or any combo of the two.

[TexasAg1969]

I suspect that if it was strictly a playbook/not winning the head to head issue then no one would have argued on the staff for JM to play yesterday. It seemed to me that 7-5 plus 3 last year was the big issue that he got from mutual teammates that convinced him Hoyer should start. They went with their gut/loyalty to the one that got them there over an untried rookie. And now they know their answer. Hoyer once again screwed the pooch despite all that extra prep time and showing up hours before the QB who had by then been told to sit the bench once again. A QB who knows in his own heart that he is far the better QB and was disappointed in not getting the start.

 

Sorry but facts don't support the inference in was a game prep issue. Pettine clearly stated that there was a 'spirited" discussion and it was a close call that he had to choose the QB that still had them in the playoff hunt. We may find soon find out what other issues were there if he still sticks with Hoyer the rest of the season. But at the moment it's just a guess, not an inference, that it was a playbook issue (Edit) or a D reading issue (I read that after posting the first part).

[Manzier]

After the debacle of "Hoyer gives us the best chance to beat Indy", how can you infer anything logical about the qb controversy

Gotta say that no one knows. It is a dilemma all righty. WHY they would play Hoyer when he looks so damn terrible is beyond me.

 

But, since NONE of us know the truth, and we ALL gotta take guesses, you HAVE to think there is a problem somewhere there. Dont know what it is. But why would you sit a projected superstar if he's owning practices and playing great and play a less than average back up whos stinking up the joint?

 

I doubt he was sat down because of a cavs game. No way. Theres more to the story, but coach aint gonna say it out loud. All possibilities are

1) he's not ready

2) he's not good

3) coach just doesn't like him

4) he doesn't know the plays

5) he went to a cavs game?

6) he arrived almost late?

7) he's on TMZ too much

8) he smelled like booze

9) coach just doesn't like him

10) Hoyer sucks, but is still better

11) coach is just dumb

12) coach is gay for hoyer

13) is being punished....out late, swans, tmz, etc?

13) none of the above

 

I honestly dont know the answer and have no agenda, but do think we will find out soon enough.....

[Aggie Brown fan]

" When you want to do a serious breakdown of that ONE DRIVE, start a new thread."

 

It's already been done by a guru who praised Johnny for his reads and great arm. The link was in this board, but you probably didn't want to see it because of your anti-Johnny bias. It was really cool, pics, video, explanations of the plays. I'll try to find it, not that you actually care.

[WalterWhite]

I was absolutely right when I said the locker room is compromised.

[Aggie Brown fan]

Manzier's back. Must've been a rough couple of days.

[TexasAg1969]

I was absolutely right when I said the locker room is compromised.

Exactly what do you mean by that Walter?

[Tour2ma]

I was under the assumption we were seeing what we had in Hoyer and let JFF sit. But you know everything so I'll let you handle it big guy.

Now who is being disingenuous?