Mayfield

[Ghoolie Always Ghoolie]

The other thing I will add, is $230 million and a shitload of #1 picks. Ah, sorry, but I  am past the "he has to develop" stage.

[tiamat63]

 Been a while since I've done this, I've moved onto other ventures.  However this was one of those things I was working on, I know (knew) exactly what would be said on this board... down to the poster and the verbiage.    Figured I'd add some reality to the Baker situation, and now him being in L.A.

 

@hoorta and @Flugel    Since you guys have specifically asked about my work and my (lack of) recent presence on the board. 

Including his time in Carolina. 

- Baker is 31st in all qualifying QB's for on target percentage throws.

- 7th in "poor" throws (off target) per pass attempts   (Note, 7th isn't good)

- 6th in passes batted away by the defender at or behind the line

- The Rams are tied with Baltimore at 33% of their total offensive plays being play action oriented

 

In the Rams first 5 drives with Baker at QB.

- Averaged throwing play action at 53.75% of his throws.   I'm discounting the drive before half because that's where your throwing plays at the wall beyond your scripted drives.  

In those 5 series

- 11 personnel ALL snaps but 1.  However, I'm also being rather generous with 11 personnel, as the Rams utilize 2nd TE/ 3rd WR Skowronek - at  6'3 225lbs.  Gives them size flexibility.     So I'm calling this 11 & 1/2 personnel.

- 2 and 3 man patterns with 'max pro' were used 7 times in those 5 drives.   That is, in football terms, a fuck ton. 

- Mirrored concepts and simple zone floods were used almost 60% of the snaps.

- The raiders stayed in man coverage or non-rotated spot zone calls, primarily cover 3, on all snaps except 4.   Of those 4 snaps, Baker didn't have a single completion.  AND... my favorite,  a familiar call back to the Packers game from last season that I'm going to share here.

 

First, the 'call back'.

 

Page 35, 9th post down.  The yankee call vs the Packers

 

 

Yankee vs Raiders, Last week though....

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

  

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

@calfoxwc  Baker is no longer dealing with injury.    Yet he's making the EXACT same mistakes as he was almost one year to date.      No, this is not a chemistry issue, this is not a playcall or coaching issue.  This is a vertical landmark throw that goes read to rhythm, hi low off the middle field safety.    Read the post, work down to the deep over then the flat.      All a QB has to do is see it open, then put it on an absolute frozen rope.  And from what I can tell, Bakers arm strength is still plenty good.     This is a Baker issue.     

 See, he does good work in the short to intermediate game and off play action.   But his decision making when he he wants to, or has to drive the ball vertically.... not locating safeties, locking onto things presnap, not dealing with pressure despite having a clean pocket;  then toss in the intermediate throws when he takes straight drops - really has been revealed as him 'guessing' at best a good lot of the time.    And by guessing I mean him making determinations presnap,  failing to understand and process quickly post snap, but locking into his throws after the ball is in his hands.

 Sadly, what Baker is good at is what 80+% of the QB's in the NFL are good at.  Because it's high school level work, again talking football terms.  What separates the 20% from the rest is their ability to do the high level stuff with a reasonable amount of consistency.  

 

What I'm showing you is the exact same concept, the exact same personnel, on the exact same down and distance that Baker got to see vs the Packers as he did in L.A.    The only difference in these results is that Baker was fortunate his receiver and the Raiders safety got their feet tangled up and both were taken out of the play.   Otherwise, just like that Packers game, this too would have been an INT.

 I'm going through the rest of Bakers throws, but I have a feeling the trends he has displayed the past 4 & 1/2 seasons will be the exact same, barring a few "nice" moments.  

 

 

 

Comparing the offenses, Baker was given an offensive structure that is almost identical to what he ran under Cleveland, minus a few subtle differences in where routes begin then end up.    McVay is a solid coach, but as I said over a week ago, he has put together game plans like this for a similar QB - Goff.     So this isn't some testament to his coaching prowess and him being able to "mold" QB's.   He could only take Jared so far and was handed a pro-bowler in his twilight with Stafford.  It's a a testament to him finding players with a skillset he's used to having to gameplan with, and understanding that what they do helps to mask those QB shortcomings.    On several of the Rams plays, they'd come out and run on 2nd down what they did on 1st down, only flipped to the opposite hash.  

 

  Watson has to improve.  But if the measure of good QB play is Baker only "repeating" what he did last week, then every team the Rams play against will need to have a defensive collapse or a bad matchup in the running game. Otherwise the hen the Rams offense will sputter and stall.   And, given what I just showed you above, the interceptions will again start to show up at the worst possible times.      Mayfield's penchant for bad decision making when it matters most hasn't been magically coached out of him by McVay.  It's still there, and it's a matter of time before it bites the Rams in the ass.

 

 Good on Baker for the throws he did make, but what he did in L.A was nothing all that different than what he did in Cleveland... and then some.      This isn't a rebirth, it's Baker doing Baker things, just in the largest sports market on Earth next to New York.     Which means if he's the Rams starter, they're going to have to take the good, and do their best to minimize the bad.

 

 

 

 

 

[calfoxwc]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 Good on Baker for the throws he did make, but what he did in L.A was nothing all that different than what he did in Cleveland... and then some.      This isn't a rebirth, it's Baker doing Baker things, just in the largest sports market on Earth next to New York.     Which means if he's the Rams starter, they're going to have to take the good, and do their best to minimize the bad.

yes, Baker isn't perfect. But Goff was often injured. and Stafford was seriously injured. Google their injures. I believe Stafford has avoided spinal injury surgery.

Yes, Baker makes mistakes. So do most qb's who don't have the players around them to be successful.

Watson is making serious mistakes right and left, producing very little in the way of points. And he has the oline, the deep threat, wr's, TE and running backs.

Looking at Baker with the Rams, look at the other quarterbacks who have played there.

Their oline is toast. What little I saw of the rams game - the oline was overrun, overpowered.

I'm talking facts here, not excuses for Baker.

as of Dec 1, 2022 - the rams' offense is possibly the worst in the NFL.

********************************

https://www.mylasports.com/rams-offense-worst/

The Rams Offense Isn’t Just Bad — It’s The Worst In The NFL

Written By

Daniel Starkand

on

November 1, 2022

Take it from Stafford - who was impressed by what Baker accomplished his first game after only a few days with the team. Take it from Joe Burrow, who knows a serious lot about being a qb:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/joe-burrow-praises-baker-mayfield-following-rams-debut/ar-AA15hasL

Joe Burrow Praises Baker Mayfield Following Rams' Debut

******************************************************

    After only a few days with the team, Baker was named NFC Offfensive Player of the Week.

  I don't get noting only Baker's mistakes etc, and not looking at the other factors that contribute to a qb having a tough time. I once saw Peyton Manning throw 3...or was it 4 INTS in a playoff game. His offensive line was toast.

and the Rams had 4 wr's on IR, including Cooper Cupp - who would have been a gigantic help to any qb.

And, Baker certainly spread the ball around:

Ben Skowronek Tutu Atwell Van Jefferson Malcolm Brown Tyler Higbee Kyren Williams Brycen Hopkins Austin Trammell Cam Akers Brandon Powell REC    YDS    TD    LONG    TGTS 7    89    0    32    8 5    50    0    22    9 2    44    1    23    4 2    12    0    9    2 2    11    0    6    3 1    10    0    10    2 1    8    0    8    1 1    5    0    5    2 1    1    0    1    1

 

 

[Flugel]

12 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 Been a while since I've done this, I've moved onto other ventures.  However this was one of those things I was working on, I know (knew) exactly what would be said on this board... down to the poster and the verbiage.    Figured I'd add some reality to the Baker situation, and now him being in L.A.

 

@hoorta and @Flugel    Since you guys have specifically asked about my work and my (lack of) recent presence on the board. 

Including his time in Carolina. 

- Baker is 31st in all qualifying QB's for on target percentage throws.

- 7th in "poor" throws (off target) per pass attempts   (Note, 7th isn't good)

- 6th in passes batted away by the defender at or behind the line

- The Rams are tied with Baltimore at 33% of their total offensive plays being play action oriented

 

In the Rams first 5 drives with Baker at QB.

- Averaged throwing play action at 53.75% of his throws.   I'm discounting the drive before half because that's where your throwing plays at the wall beyond your scripted drives.  

In those 5 series

- 11 personnel ALL snaps but 1.  However, I'm also being rather generous with 11 personnel, as the Rams utilize 2nd TE/ 3rd WR Skowronek - at  6'3 225lbs.  Gives them size flexibility.     So I'm calling this 11 & 1/2 personnel.

- 2 and 3 man patterns with 'max pro' were used 7 times in those 5 drives.   That is, in football terms, a fuck ton. 

- Mirrored concepts and simple zone floods were used almost 60% of the snaps.

- The raiders stayed in man coverage or non-rotated spot zone calls, primarily cover 3, on all snaps except 4.   Of those 4 snaps, Baker didn't have a single completion.  AND... my favorite,  a familiar call back to the Packers game from last season that I'm going to share here.

 

First, the 'call back'.

 

Page 35, 9th post down.  The yankee call vs the Packers

 

 

Yankee vs Raiders, Last week though....

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

  

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

@calfoxwc  Baker is no longer dealing with injury.    Yet he's making the EXACT same mistakes as he was almost one year to date.      No, this is not a chemistry issue, this is not a playcall or coaching issue.  This is a vertical landmark throw that goes read to rhythm, hi low off the middle field safety.    Read the post, work down to the deep over then the flat.      All a QB has to do is see it open, then put it on an absolute frozen rope.  And from what I can tell, Bakers arm strength is still plenty good.     This is a Baker issue.     

 See, he does good work in the short to intermediate game and off play action.   But his decision making when he he wants to, or has to drive the ball vertically.... not locating safeties, locking onto things presnap, not dealing with pressure despite having a clean pocket;  then toss in the intermediate throws when he takes straight drops - really has been revealed as him 'guessing' at best a good lot of the time.    And by guessing I mean him making determinations presnap,  failing to understand and process quickly post snap, but locking into his throws after the ball is in his hands.

 Sadly, what Baker is good at is what 80+% of the QB's in the NFL are good at.  Because it's high school level work, again talking football terms.  What separates the 20% from the rest is their ability to do the high level stuff with a reasonable amount of consistency.  

 

What I'm showing you is the exact same concept, the exact same personnel, on the exact same down and distance that Baker got to see vs the Packers as he did in L.A.    The only difference in these results is that Baker was fortunate his receiver and the Raiders safety got their feet tangled up and both were taken out of the play.   Otherwise, just like that Packers game, this too would have been an INT.

 I'm going through the rest of Bakers throws, but I have a feeling the trends he has displayed the past 4 & 1/2 seasons will be the exact same, barring a few "nice" moments.  

 

 

 

Comparing the offenses, Baker was given an offensive structure that is almost identical to what he ran under Cleveland, minus a few subtle differences in where routes begin then end up.    McVay is a solid coach, but as I said over a week ago, he has put together game plans like this for a similar QB - Goff.     So this isn't some testament to his coaching prowess and him being able to "mold" QB's.   He could only take Jared so far and was handed a pro-bowler in his twilight with Stafford.  It's a a testament to him finding players with a skillset he's used to having to gameplan with, and understanding that what they do helps to mask those QB shortcomings.    On several of the Rams plays, they'd come out and run on 2nd down what they did on 1st down, only flipped to the opposite hash.  

 

  Watson has to improve.  But if the measure of good QB play is Baker only "repeating" what he did last week, then every team the Rams play against will need to have a defensive collapse or a bad matchup in the running game. Otherwise the hen the Rams offense will sputter and stall.   And, given what I just showed you above, the interceptions will again start to show up at the worst possible times.      Mayfield's penchant for bad decision making when it matters most hasn't been magically coached out of him by McVay.  It's still there, and it's a matter of time before it bites the Rams in the ass.

 

 Good on Baker for the throws he did make, but what he did in L.A was nothing all that different than what he did in Cleveland... and then some.      This isn't a rebirth, it's Baker doing Baker things, just in the largest sports market on Earth next to New York.     Which means if he's the Rams starter, they're going to have to take the good, and do their best to minimize the bad.

 

 

 

 

 

Well done!   I think he's gonna have a nice long career as the next Colt McCoy.    I just wish those pretending he's a misunderstood Joe Montana would finally move on like Baker has (to his 3rd team)...

[tiamat63]

17 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

yes, Baker isn't perfect. But Goff was often injured. and Stafford was seriously injured. Google their injures. I believe Stafford has avoided spinal injury surgery.

 

 

Sweetheart, this wasn't a post for you to continue discussion... those days are over.

This also isn't a post debating the merits of college prospects which, while not a true 50/50, have a certain 'chance' to them where anybody could be right.   It's not a science and nobody has nailed it. That's where I'm happy to receive your feedback.    This isn't that.  

This is apples to apples, NFL plays, coaches and personnel in the vacuum that is the league. 

Take my analysis, which was nice enough of me to not include Baker throwing a pick on a half field read, as it is - fair and thorough.  A breakdown that, podcasts which rant with little substance and PFF aside, I haven't found anything anywhere quite like the charting I've done that isn't likely being done in-house by professionals.      While you're at it, do yourself a favor and take what little information I still give here and use it to make yourself some money gambling.   The Rams and Baker will regress and have turnovers.  Do not expect him to duplicate that performance without an INT or two, and against a Packers defense that saw him less than 365 days ago too.     As it stands, Rams are +6.5 and the common man is likely riding the emotional wave that is Baker-mania in L.A.

 If the Pack injury report looks good, then I'm going in on GB to cover at -6.5 while also looking at a prop for Ben Skowronek on receptions or yards.      I'd advise you do the same if the lines look agreeable.

 You're welcome in advance.

 

❤️

 

[calfoxwc]

28 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

You're welcome in advance.

Take it to a gay bar, then. I thought most posts were subjects of discussion - except you go right back to el supremo arrogance and belligerence because Joe Burrow knows quarterbacking, and you don't.

    Your inability to comprehensively appraise Baker etc, shows that your criticism is meant to boost your superego standing.

   Not buyin it. What I posted was legit. I didn't smart off to you in any way, but "there you go again".

   All the qb's in Carolina and the Rams - have been injured. I told you what that means overall to the offense general inability to function.

   Baker isn't perfect, but he rallied the offense to two scores in the fourth quarter to win the game. Got the game ball. NFC player of the Week.

   So, he isn't perfect, has flaws etc.

   So do you. Have a nice day. 

[Dutch Oven]

9 hours ago, Flugel said:

Well done!   I think he's gonna have a nice long career as the next Colt McCoy.    I just wish those pretending he's a misunderstood Joe Montana would finally move on like Baker has (to his 3rd team)...

I've never seen a more average player cause so much division within a fanbase. 

Baker fans are almost cult-like at this point. I fully expect that they fly Baker flags at their houses and wear Make Baker Great Again hats or something. 

 

[mjp28]

5 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

... Especially first 3 years.....  I've never seen a more average player cause so much division within a fanbase. Hmmm.

Baker fans are almost cult-like at this point. I fully expect that they fly Baker flags at their houses and wear Make Baker Great Again hats or something. 

 

Oh yes Baker Mayfield 6' 1"  215,  main career stats :    Career.  61.2.  15,668.  99. 62. 86.6.  May still have a few years there.  And cut from the same cloth as Colt McCoy for one.

Colt McCoy 6' 1"  212,  CLE (first 3), SF, WAS, NYG, AZ  career stats (for just one journeyman QB)   Career.  62.6. 7,897. 34.  31.  80.4.  

You wonder if BRM,  CLE (first 3), CAR, LAR    bounces around a few more years what his career stats might be.  And will he be remembered as more than a former CLE (3 yrs) quarterback,  who knows.   The   "good but"   tag on him.

 

[Flugel]

7 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Oh yes Baker Mayfield 6' 1"  215,  main career stats :    Career.  61.2.  15,668.  99. 62. 86.6.  May still have a few years there.  And cut from the same cloth as Colt McCoy for one.

Colt McCoy 6' 1"  212,  CLE (first 3), SF, WAS, NYG, AZ  career stats (for just one journeyman QB)   Career.  62.6. 7,897. 34.  31.  80.4.  

You wonder if BRM,  CLE (first 3), CAR, LAR    bounces around a few more years what his career stats might be.  And will he be remembered as more than a former CLE (3 yrs) quarterback,  who knows.   The   "good but"   tag on him.

 

I brought that analogy up because the NFL always has a place for both guys IF they can put football 1st in spite of their limitations for those that can't let go.  I like Colt McCoy (the same way I like Jacoby Brissett); and as a 3rd round pick - his NFL career has outlived a lot of 1st and 2nd round picks the Browns made before/after him.   The teams that employ them are happy they have a fill-in starter they can trust.  The Rams just did that for Baker after Carolina couldn't.  

Baker had some success here as a rookie and sparked this team from the winless ranks to "gotta-see." He gave us fans some hope and long awaited excitement, even if just temporary.  I wanted us to draft the guy; and was happy we did so (until hindsight 20/20 reminded me the NFL has 32 film rooms that can find weaknesses to exploit - it was that or try to win an argument in lieu having intelligent conversation).  Some guys never get there and I think there's only 1 Vinny Testaverde that made Pro Bowls after 30/gray hair.  

Aside from what Tia has shown us in this thread and his previous posts similar to it, the Dilfer-like panic attacks causing the dyslexic and premature progression reads incompatible with the speed of the game left a lot of open targets in lieu of the bad decisions.  More specifically, this isn't the Big 12 any more (same conference Colt McCoy came out of).  The difference I see between Baker and Colt is the maturity level required to maintain a leadership role that will keep teammates believing in you and what you bring. Also, Baker had some early success that he got complacent with.  For example, he was far more talented than the 1st 2 QB Coaches he had so he wasn't always open to their coaching. He was chugging beer at Cleveland Indians' baseball games; while preparing more for his wedding in the summer than training camp/football season ahead.  Another major distraction was doing all of the commercials that featured him.  All that, showed whoever needed to see it - this guy no longer had football as his #1 priority.

I'm a Browns' fan that once admired his "if you count me out - I'll make you sorry for doing so."  That disappeared when he became too content with his rookie year; and refused to put the work in on his weaknesses.  The Browns still worked around those weaknesses in the playoff season to get a 26 TD passes to 8 INTs ratio; but we could see what was in the way of him being elite. Adversity didn't bring me the guy I thought he'd become.  Am I giving up too early?  I don't know and I don't care.  And why?  He doesn't play for my favorite team any more.  That's more important to me than trying to win an argument about a guy that can't help us win any more than he could the last year he played for us. 

Joe Burrow was just being a nice guy before he wasn't one on the field last Sunday.... Let's do ourselves a favor and move on before we have a love-tragic Romeo and Juliet ending on our hands in here.

 

[lodilobo]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:32 AM, Flugel said:

I brought that analogy up because the NFL always has a place for both guys IF they can put football 1st in spite of their limitations for those that can't let go.  I like Colt McCoy (the same way I like Jacoby Brissett); and as a 3rd round pick - his NFL career has outlived a lot of 1st and 2nd round picks the Browns made before/after him.   The teams that employ them are happy they have a fill-in starter they can trust.  The Rams just did that for Baker after Carolina couldn't.  

Baker had some success here as a rookie and sparked this team from the winless ranks to "gotta-see." He gave us fans some hope and long awaited excitement, even if just temporary.  I wanted us to draft the guy; and was happy we did so (until hindsight 20/20 reminded me the NFL has 32 film rooms that can find weaknesses to exploit - it was that or try to win an argument in lieu having intelligent conversation).  Some guys never get there and I think there's only 1 Vinny Testaverde that made Pro Bowls after 30/gray hair.  

Aside from what Tia has shown us in this thread and his previous posts similar to it, the Dilfer-like panic attacks causing the dyslexic and premature progression reads incompatible with the speed of the game left a lot of open targets in lieu of the bad decisions.  More specifically, this isn't the Big 12 any more (same conference Colt McCoy came out of).  The difference I see between Baker and Colt is the maturity level required to maintain a leadership role that will keep teammates believing in you and what you bring. Also, Baker had some early success that he got complacent with.  For example, he was far more talented than the 1st 2 QB Coaches he had so he wasn't always open to their coaching. He was chugging beer at Cleveland Indians' baseball games; while preparing more for his wedding in the summer than training camp/football season ahead.  Another major distraction was doing all of the commercials that featured him.  All that, showed whoever needed to see it - this guy no longer had football as his #1 priority.

I'm a Browns' fan that once admired his "if you count me out - I'll make you sorry for doing so."  That disappeared when he became too content with his rookie year; and refused to put the work in on his weaknesses.  The Browns still worked around those weaknesses in the playoff season to get a 26 TD passes to 8 INTs ratio; but we could see what was in the way of him being elite. Adversity didn't bring me the guy I thought he'd become.  Am I giving up too early?  I don't know and I don't care.  And why?  He doesn't play for my favorite team any more.  That's more important to me than trying to win an argument about a guy that can't help us win any more than he could the last year he played for us. 

Joe Burrow was just being a nice guy before he wasn't one on the field last Sunday.... Let's do ourselves a favor and move on before we have a love-tragic Romeo and Juliet ending on our hands in here.

 

This is an idiotic post. If you want to make comparisons, compare your boy Watson to Brissett.....he doesn't look all that good, does he?

[mjp28]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:32 AM, Flugel said:

I brought that analogy up because the NFL always has a place for both guys IF they can put football 1st in spite of their limitations for those that can't let go.  I like Colt McCoy (the same way I like Jacoby Brissett); and as a 3rd round pick - his NFL career has outlived a lot of 1st and 2nd round picks the Browns made before/after him.   The teams that employ them are happy they have a fill-in starter they can trust.  The Rams just did that for Baker after Carolina couldn't.  

Baker had some success here as a rookie and sparked this team from the winless ranks to "gotta-see." He gave us fans some hope and long awaited excitement, even if just temporary.  I wanted us to draft the guy; and was happy we did so (until hindsight 20/20 reminded me the NFL has 32 film rooms that can find weaknesses to exploit - it was that or try to win an argument in lieu having intelligent conversation).  Some guys never get there and I think there's only 1 Vinny Testaverde that made Pro Bowls after 30/gray hair.  

Aside from what Tia has shown us in this thread and his previous posts similar to it, the Dilfer-like panic attacks causing the dyslexic and premature progression reads incompatible with the speed of the game left a lot of open targets in lieu of the bad decisions.  More specifically, this isn't the Big 12 any more (same conference Colt McCoy came out of).  The difference I see between Baker and Colt is the maturity level required to maintain a leadership role that will keep teammates believing in you and what you bring. Also, Baker had some early success that he got complacent with.  For example, he was far more talented than the 1st 2 QB Coaches he had so he wasn't always open to their coaching. He was chugging beer at Cleveland Indians' baseball games; while preparing more for his wedding in the summer than training camp/football season ahead.  Another major distraction was doing all of the commercials that featured him.  All that, showed whoever needed to see it - this guy no longer had football as his #1 priority.

I'm a Browns' fan that once admired his "if you count me out - I'll make you sorry for doing so."  That disappeared when he became too content with his rookie year; and refused to put the work in on his weaknesses.  The Browns still worked around those weaknesses in the playoff season to get a 26 TD passes to 8 INTs ratio; but we could see what was in the way of him being elite. Adversity didn't bring me the guy I thought he'd become.  Am I giving up too early?  I don't know and I don't care.  And why?  He doesn't play for my favorite team any more.  That's more important to me than trying to win an argument about a guy that can't help us win any more than he could the last year he played for us. 

Joe Burrow was just being a nice guy before he wasn't one on the field last Sunday.... Let's do ourselves a favor and move on before we have a love-tragic Romeo and Juliet ending on our hands in here.

 

I also am a die-hard-forever Cleveland + BROWNS + any leader QB whether it's a Ryan or Sipe or Kosar as long as they can lead the team forward regardless of the circumstances.   

And I've always believed that leadership whether it's business or sports or whatever starts at the very top and works its way downward  in every situation  and the BROWNS currently are sadly lacking there both in ownership and through the coaching ranks.   

Almost an impossible situation to correct unless the current ownership realizes that they can NOT run a professional football organization and just completely  STEP ASIDE and let someone else run the show.

OK now what, will they 1. realize that and  2.  do it.  Until they do it well the Cleveland BROWNS are destined to be sub par.  The worst part is they have some good players there now  -but-   can NOT  do what is necessary to finish this. 

Makes me sick just thinking about it.  Someone else can put their two cents into this.  AND .....

GO BROWNS,  always.

 

[Flugel]

4 hours ago, lodilobo said:

This is an idiotic post. If you want to make comparisons, compare your boy Watson to Brissett.....he doesn't look all that good, does he?

Since your reading comprehension sucks - I'll give you a comparison that's easy to understand. I'm a life-long Browns' fan; while you're just a Baker fan that wants to sniff his dirty jock strap. 

 

 

 

 

[Westside Steve]

19 minutes ago, Flugel said:

That is 100% okay with me but you're diving into a conversation that this is not about.  Reading the flow of discussion can get you EGGSACTLY where you need to be in this one Steve.  I'll bring the post back since nobody is doing that in this conversation. My stuff told the truth about where Baker is today and why.  He's on his 3rd different team in 2022.  Anyway, I'm not gonna re-type it - I'll just hit reply to it.  It doesn't ask anyone to be a Watson fan or demand it. It stuck to the title of the thread.  As one of Baker's biggest fans pre-draft - I think my assessments of him have remained fair and honest.

 

 

No doubt I arrived mid conversation but I think I'm okay in responding to the jock strap jibe. Haha.

WSS

[Flugel]

51 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Absolutely nothing wrong with taking a personal interest in individual players or doubting the wisdom of making a bad deal. People still gripe about vinny/bernie the Paul Warfield trade drafting Johnny Football etc etc. Even though he hasn't reached Ray Lewis Aaron Hernandez or Michael Vick levels, Watson is still somewhat distasteful and it is perfectly legitimate to call out the people who supported that deal if there is no Lombardi in Berea. (Just as I will expect to hear loud obnoxious gloating if it works)

WSS

That is 100% okay with me.  As a PRE-DRAFT Baker fan and loyalist throughout his time here - I told the truth about the guy in the subject heading.  Then it got silly IMO.

[lodilobo]

On 12/17/2022 at 4:21 PM, Flugel said:

Since your reading comprehension sucks - I'll give you a comparison that's easy to understand. I'm a life-long Browns' fan; while you're just a Baker fan that wants to sniff his dirty jock strap. 

 

 

 

 

It's not my reading comprehension at fault here. It's more your dumbass comparison of Mayfield to Colt McCoy.  I couldn't care less where Mayfield ends up....or Watson, for that matter. I get damn sick of you guys taking any shot you can at a guy who came in here, and brought this team back from 1 - 31 and finally gave us something to get excited about. Lifelong fan??....have you been there since 1960 like 

[lodilobo]

I have? My loyalty only goes so far. When this owner continues to destroy a once proud franchise like the Cleveland Browns, I get a little aggravated. I'm 72....I don't have the patience for morons I once had. 

[Flugel]

35 minutes ago, lodilobo said:

It's not my reading comprehension at fault here. It's more your dumbass comparison of Mayfield to Colt McCoy.  I couldn't care less where Mayfield ends up....or Watson, for that matter. I get damn sick of you guys taking any shot you can at a guy who came in here, and brought this team back from 1 - 31 and finally gave us something to get excited about. Lifelong fan??....have you been there since 1960 like 

Really?  This was my 2nd paragraph in italic that your reading comprehension missed: Baker had some success here as a rookie and sparked this team from the winless ranks to "gotta-see." He gave us fans some hope and long awaited excitement, even if just temporary.  I wanted us to draft the guy; and was happy we did so (until hindsight 20/20 reminded me the NFL has 32 film rooms that can find weaknesses to exploit 

Mayfield would have only been a fill-in starter in Cleveland if he got to stay.  Then he went to Carolina where he played his way into being Sam Darnold's back-up.  Now that Mathew Stafford is sidelined in street clothes, he's filling in for the injured starter.  

One of us can read the writing on the wall - the other one finds the truth too hurtful.  When all 32 teams had healthy QBs, only 1 became interested in Baker at the last minute.  Unfortunately, when he played his way down the depth chart - the guy they wanted Baker to replace/upgrade earned his starting job back over Baker.  

Who's kidding who here?  

Edited December 19, 2022 by Flugel
added point from a previous reply I made

[tiamat63]

Colt's statistical profile is closer to Baker's than not. 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McCoCo00.htm

 

 And for all the praise heaped on Mayfield about "turning this team around", the real credit for giving Cleveland fans a glimpse of competitive football belongs to Kyle Shanahan and Brian Hoyer. 

 Despite losing Our starting and backup center, having an all rookie backfield and marginal skill positions, those two had the Browns with a TD of being 8-8 and a wildcard birth. 

 It's crazy the amount of people who have seemingly forgotten about them. 

 

[Bob806]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Colt's statistical profile is closer to Baker's than not. 

 

 And for all the praise heaped on Mayfield about "turning this team around", the real credit for giving Cleveland fans a glimpse of competitive football belongs to Kyle Shanahan and Brian Hoyer. 

 

 It's crazy the amount of people who have seemingly forgotten about them. 

 

Well I haven't forgotten...lol I just wrote about Shanahan earlier in the week. Haslam & Farmer had to "justify" the Manziel pick, ugh.

To be fair, Hoyer self imploded vs the Colts here in a 25-24 loss. 

I think just about everybody knew JM was going to fail. He had talent, but ultimately no heart and way too small for the NFL.

[Dutch Oven]

8 hours ago, Bob806 said:

Well I haven't forgotten...lol I just wrote about Shanahan earlier in the week. Haslam & Farmer had to "justify" the Manziel pick, ugh.

To be fair, Hoyer self imploded vs the Colts here in a 25-24 loss. 

I think just about everybody knew JM was going to fail. He had talent, but ultimately no heart and way too small for the NFL.

I have a sneaking suspicion that there were some people here who were fully drinking the Billy Manziel Kool-Aid, besides TexAg, of course.

[tiamat63]

On 12/15/2022 at 3:30 PM, tiamat63 said:

  While you're at it, do yourself a favor and take what little information I still give here and use it to make yourself some money gambling.   The Rams and Baker will regress and have turnovers.  Do not expect him to duplicate that performance without an INT or two, and against a Packers defense that saw him less than 365 days ago too.     As it stands, Rams are +6.5 and the common man is likely riding the emotional wave that is Baker-mania in L.A.

 If the Pack injury report looks good, then I'm going in on GB to cover at -6.5 while also looking at a prop for Ben Skowronek on receptions or yards.      I'd advise you do the same if the lines look agreeable.

 You're welcome in advance.

 

❤️

Anybody besides myself go in on GB - 6.5 ?

[DieHardBrownsFan1]

• LA Rams
• Matchup
• Green Bay

Los Angeles Rams

Green Bay Packers

Passing	Comp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	QBRat
Baker Mayfield	12	21	111	1	1	67.8

[Bob806]

54 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan1 said:

• LA Rams
• Matchup
• Green Bay

Los Angeles Rams

Green Bay Packers

Passing	Comp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	QBRat
Baker Mayfield	12	21	111	1	1	67.8

He made a few nice throws but in general, he was running for his life. Missed a couple reads as usual.

I think he'll stick around in LA with McVay (assuming he stays, there's reports of him leaving for a TV gig). 

The Rams' 1st round pick is going to the Lions in 2023. So it's either Stafford, Wofford, or Mayfield moving forward. 

Wow though, who ever thought the Rams would disintegrate so fast? 

[calfoxwc]

3 hours ago, Bob806 said:

He made a few nice throws but in general, he was running for his life. Missed a couple reads as usual.

I think he'll stick around in LA with McVay (assuming he stays, there's reports of him leaving for a TV gig). 

The Rams' 1st round pick is going to the Lions in 2023. So it's either Stafford, Wofford, or Mayfield moving forward. 

Wow though, who ever thought the Rams would disintegrate so fast? 

I felt sorry for Mayfield. And the offensive line ! The first series, the center? had to leave the game, and the guard shifted to center?

They were awful for most of the game. So often, couldn't gain much on a run, couldn't pass protect.

  My theory is, they were wearing dress shoes instead of cleats for the first three? quarters.

  And what the? the Rams secondary couldn't cover anyone til later on in the second half. It was pitiful.

  Luckily, we have been watching games recorded - fast forward saves so much time. Happily very busy!

  I think the Rams need to sign some offensive linemen today - to start next week vs Denver.

  The rams offense did make one good drive for a TD, but early on, I think their game plan to "establish the run first" backfired pretty bad. The first serius? injury added fuel to the "Fire".....

[nickers]

2 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

I felt sorry for Mayfield. And the offensive line ! The first series, the center? had to leave the game, and the guard shifted to center?

They were awful for most of the game. So often, couldn't gain much on a run, couldn't pass protect.

  My theory is, they were wearing dress shoes instead of cleats for the first three? quarters.

  And what the? the Rams secondary couldn't cover anyone til later on in the second half. It was pitiful.

  Luckily, we have been watching games recorded - fast forward saves so much time. Happily very busy!

  I think the Rams need to sign some offensive linemen today - to start next week vs Denver.

  The rams offense did make one good drive for a TD, but early on, I think their game plan to "establish the run first" backfired pretty bad. The first serius? injury added fuel to the "Fire".....

It amazes me that for all the people that wanted to run Mayfield out of town , They sure want to keep talking and scrutinizing about him... I guess they aren't happy enough... I mean Jesus .. Let the kid go live his life for chrissake... he's not a Brown anymore... Some of you pussies need to move on and focus on Watson.. He's the QB now... (Not directed at you Cal). I wish the kid nothing but success except when playing against us... I will keep an eye on him from a far... All that being said... Go Browns!

[calfoxwc]

7 minutes ago, nickers said:

It amazes me that for all the people that wanted to run Mayfield out of town , They sure want to keep talking and scrutinizing about him... I guess they aren't happy enough... I mean Jesus .. Let the kid go live his life for chrissake... he's not a Brown anymore... Some of you pussies need to move on and focus on Watson.. He's the QB now... (Not directed at you Cal). I wish the kid nothing but success except when playing against us... I will keep an eye on him from a far... All that being said... Go Browns!

LOL - it's true - two whole long threads of baker bashing etc, then one positive thread got bitched about - "he isn't a Brown anymore".

hahahaha. I don't get gloating about Baker's struggles with two struggling teams.....like the last game.... - (except I felt sorry for him and the whole rams team vs the packers in the freeze your ass off game).

   If it weren't for all the ongoing *negativity* around here, we all could just stop the controversy.

[hoorta]

On 12/19/2022 at 7:17 AM, lodilobo said:

It's not my reading comprehension at fault here. It's more your dumbass comparison of Mayfield to Colt McCoy.  I couldn't care less where Mayfield ends up....or Watson, for that matter. I get damn sick of you guys taking any shot you can at a guy who came in here, and brought this team back from 1 - 31 and finally gave us something to get excited about. Lifelong fan??....have you been there since 1960 like 

Yeah, FYI I've been around the football world as long as you have....  Yep, Baker took the Browns to the playoffs...  You still giddy that Jim Brown won us the NFL Championship in 1964?  That's one outlier year for Mayfield, and what the experts opined about Baker rang true again Monday night, he's maddeningly inconsistent.  He was pretty pedestrian against the Packers, Captain check down..  And I saw at least one play where Baker had a two guys wide open (shades of the OBJ bitch) and he didn't see them.  

Of course Cult Baker is still making excuses for him and can't come to admit Mayfield is another Andy Dalton who can only succeed if the surrounding cast is studly all world. 

11 minutes ago, nickers said:

It amazes me that for all the people that wanted to run Mayfield out of town , They sure want to keep talking and scrutinizing about him... I guess they aren't happy enough... I mean Jesus .. Let the kid go live his life for chrissake... he's not a Brown anymore... Some of you pussies need to move on and focus on Watson.. He's the QB now... (Not directed at you Cal). I wish the kid nothing but success except when playing against us... I will keep an eye on him from a far... All that being said... Go Browns!

That's the problem with Cult Baker nickers... And it IS a cult. Should we analyze everything former Brown Jarvis Landry is doing with the Saints? Maybe rave about how great Jordan Poyer is playing for the Bills? Sheeezzzeee!!!!  I'm more than happy to let it go and move on.  THEY'RE the ones who can't let it go, and follow his every doing around the league like a bunch of pathetic lapdogs. I learned long ago not to fall in love with particular Browns players (with few exceptions). I still have a Tim Couch gathering dust in my basement as a reminder of that.   

PS Tia- I hope you bet a ton on the Packers to cover last night. It could have been more than 12, if they didn't do a series of kneel downs to run out the clock at the end of the game.    

[Bob806]

16 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

 

   If it weren't for all the ongoing *negativity* around here, we all could just stop the controversy.

I think it's just a disease.

Fan is short for fanatic. There's 31 other teams with fan forums.

Check out some of them on your own time, it really isn't any different, even with teams who are winning (consistently winning).

[hoorta]

22 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

LOL - it's true - two whole long threads of baker bashing etc, then one positive thread got bitched about - "he isn't a Brown anymore".

hahahaha. I don't get gloating about Baker's struggles with two struggling teams.....like the last game.... - (except I felt sorry for him and the whole rams team vs the packers in the freeze your ass off game).

   If it weren't for all the ongoing *negativity* around here, we all could just stop the controversy.

And if YOU would just let it go and move on, we could stop having discussions about a guy who no longer plays for the Browns....  

[calfoxwc]

Just now, hoorta said:

And if YOU would just let it go and move on, we could stop having discussions about a guy who no longer plays for the Browns....  

another lie. My positive thread came WELL AFTER the TWO negative threads.

but thanks for replying in the afternoon.......