Baker Mayfield

[Unsympathetic]

20 minutes ago, Canton Dawg said:

You failed to mention that LJ has thrown 8 interceptions this year compared to Baker’ 3 picks.

I look at LJ as a running back that happens to throw the ball.

You failed to mention that only during this season did Lamar's career interception total [26] finally surpass Baker's total from 2019 alone [21].

[nickers]

2 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

You failed to mention that only during this season did Lamar's career interception total [26] finally surpass Baker's total from 2019 alone [21].

Baker had Fat freddie that season Goof..

[Dutch Oven]

7 minutes ago, nickers said:

Well.. You're an ASS.. So there's that..

When unable to counter with facts, there's always the nickers way of debating... 

[Zombo]

5 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

You're high on your own supply if you think Baker - who's smaller than LJ - is a better passer than Lamar.

You're welcome to your own feelings, but not your own facts.

Baker Mayfield hasn't won an NFL MVP award.  Lamar has - and he deserved it.

It's not underselling Baker to say he's not as good as a guy who has an NFL MVP.. that's actually about as objective as you can get.  They're both good -- and Lamar is better..

You're overselling Baker to tell yourself he's better than one of the top tier of QB's in the league.

Great, but not related to Mayfield's performance vs Lamar.

I agree -- Lamar can't do enough to demonstrate to you that he's better than Mayfield.

As opposed, of course, to Baltimore's game plan, right?

 

So if you aren't interested in coming up with some metric and sticking to that comparison whether it's a positive or negative result for you.. then it's really just feelings and not an actual analysis of anything.  It's just a bad choice to try to compare Baker to, of all people, Lamar Jackson...

Of all people!!

Jackson got an MVP while his legs were young, but someday he'll have to become a pocket passer and you'll feel like an idiot for saying he's a better PASSER than Mayfield.

Baker completes 66.7% of his passes at a clip of 8.5 y/a, Jackson 64.4% for 7.9 y/a with 5 extra interceptions to boot.

Z

[nickers]

1 minute ago, Dutch Oven said:

When unable to counter with facts, there's always the nickers way of debating... 

And you belong in that group yourself Mr hillbilly

[Dutch Oven]

10 minutes ago, nickers said:

And you belong in that group yourself Mr hillbilly

Oh, I won't even attempt to debate football with you nickers. No way.

You played Little League Football! 

[Dutch Oven]

11 minutes ago, Zombo said:

Of all people!!

Jackson got an MVP while his legs were young, but someday he'll have to become a pocket passer and you'll feel like an idiot for saying he's a better PASSER than Mayfield.

Baker completes 66.7% of his passes at a clip of 8.5 y/a, Jackson 64.4% for 7.9 y/a with 5 extra interceptions to boot.

Z

One would think that Baker is poised to have a longer, more consistent NFL career than Lamar because of this - how will Lamar be able to transition to being more of a pocket QB when his athleticism starts to wain? I don't think Baker's ceiling is as high as Lamar's - but his floor might be much higher, resulting in a more consistent, longer career. 

[nickers]

3 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Oh, I won't even attempt to debate football with you nickers. No way.

You played Little League Football! 

Good.. I don't deal with simpletons like you..

[jiggins7919]

1 hour ago, nickers said:

We'll be fine

 

I THINK so, but it's a very strange game. Most of the games this year I've had a pretty good handle on. The few exceptions have been the Steelers and Bengals game. I don't feel like I have a grasp on this one, and New England is an overtime loss away from winning 5 in a row. That's not insignificant. That's basically as hot as any team in the entire league if you think about it. 

That being said, it really does seem like we're just BETTER than them, right? Top to bottom roster wise, I objectively believe we're more talented. Now, losing Chubb and Hunt for this game DOES cripple us, but Johnson could very well have another nice game. He's decent in the screen game and runs pretty dang well, BUT Johnson absolutely needs to protect the ball better. Way too many one-handed carries in traffic. Believe me, if WE notice it, BILL notices it. 😂

An absolutely huge bonus for us is the return of JOK. Patriots absolutely love to take the short stuff and that's something we've struggled with this year, although we did a bit better vs Cincy. Tackling and limiting YAC will be paramount. 

I'm a bit more concerned with our offense than our defense, and Chubb getting covid was a real shot to the pills because we started to come alive last week. There's still a good chance Baker spreads it around efficiently like he's always done without OBJ and we have an effective offensive performance. 

The game comes down to a few very simple things, like almost every game. Who converts offensively in the red zone and who stops the opposition in the red zone. That was the oke area we struggled with last week and we're scrambling a bit. That option play with Landry was the perfect call, but Landry shit the sheets. We must execute. 

And lastly, turnovers. We finally forced a few last week and look at the difference. Conversely, if we're the ones turning it over, we'll lose. 

It's a game we can win, but it'll have to be a solid effort. Can't wait! 

[lodilobo]

If you check, Baker's current qr is well above LJ's. Like the other guy said...he's a great running back. That will  be slowing down soon. In fact, I think it already has. I was not a big Baker fan when we drafted him, but at this point, I wouldn't even consider trading him for Jackson. MVP?...that was 3 years ago.

[Unsympathetic]

And no other team has ever had bad coordinators or playcalling?

10 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

They're both good -- and Lamar is better..

Objective comparisons of Baker vs Lamar just don't end well.

 

Appreciating athletes on other teams for what they can do doesn't make me any less a fan of Cleveland - or Baker.

[Flugel]

17 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

LJ by a landslide... The threat of his legs is so great that his arm/ Head limitations in the passing game matter not. And it is now clear that he brings all the intangibles Baker does... e.g., leadership.

Limits? Yes... but he is still learning at the Pro level and so those limits might ease with time. He has the tools, just needs the refinement. Easier said than realized... hell to the yeah... but so long as he runs smartly and avoids major injury... he has a chance.

If he does not, then he could go the way of Mahomes, from whom some of the luster has faded.

I remember the year LJ won a Heisman at Louisville making him the 1st ACC QB to do that who did not go to Florida State.  Anyway, the guy threw 30 TD passes with a 58% completion rate and 3390 yards passing to only 9 INTs.  Then came the meatball on spaghetti with another 20 TDs rushing to go with his 1,538 yards on the ground.  

I think LJ and Russell Wilson are the toughest 2 QBs to get a clean shot at.  The difference between the 2 is that Russell Wilson has played behind some terrible pass protecting OLs making him the easier guy to sack IMO.

The biggest surprise was seeing Miami, of all teams, be the 1st defense this year to consistently cage him in to wind out of sail his confidence and production.

[Unsympathetic]

27 minutes ago, Zombo said:

Baker completes 66.7% of his passes at a clip of 8.5 y/a, Jackson 64.4% for 7.9 y/a with 5 extra interceptions to boot.

And when you look at career stats.. Baker's a 62% while Lamar is at 64%, and as I said once already Lamar's interception total for his career just this season surpassed Baker's 2019.

 

This is the challenge when looking at data.. you don't want to fixate on the most recent measurement because you don't know if it's an outlier or not.  Lamar has shown he doesn't throw picks [MVP season was 36-6 TD-INT] while Baker hasn't shown that his 2021 lack of INT's is the blip or the trend.

 

Just to be clear: Do I want Stef to have unleashed the no-INT-throwing-good-presnap-reading Baker for the rest of Baker's career? Of course! But would I bet my house down payment on that as a certainty? No way..

[Canton Dawg]

49 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

You failed to mention that only during this season did Lamar's career interception total [26] finally surpass Baker's total from 2019 alone [21].

How many playoff games has LJ won?

[nickers]

1 minute ago, Canton Dawg said:

How many playoff games has LJ won?

Not only that.. LJ has the worst mechanics as a Passer I ever saw,,, Hes terribly inaccurate after 15 yards...

[Zombo]

17 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

And when you look at career stats.. Baker's a 62% while Lamar is at 64%, and as I said once already Lamar's interception total for his career just this season surpassed Baker's 2019.

 

This is the challenge when looking at data.. you don't want to fixate on the most recent measurement because you don't know if it's an outlier or not.  Lamar has shown he doesn't throw picks [MVP season was 36-6 TD-INT] while Baker hasn't shown that his 2021 lack of INT's is the blip or the trend.

 

Just to be clear: Do I want Stef to have unleashed the no-INT-throwing-good-presnap-reading Baker for the rest of Baker's career? Of course! But would I bet my house down payment on that as a certainty? No way..

Maybe I came late to the show here, but I was responding to the statement that Jackson IS the better PASSER.

I don't believe he is.

As far as career ... we'll see ... but I'd bet on Baker winning a SB MVP before Jackson does.

Z

[Dutch Oven]

2 minutes ago, Zombo said:

Maybe I came late to the show here, but I was responding to the statement that Jackson IS the better PASSER.

I don't believe he is.

As far as career ... we'll see ... but I'd bet on Baker winning a SB MVP before Jackson does.

Z

Well if there was ever a year where he's surrounded by a ton of talent and there appears to be a clear shot at the AFC crown, it's this year for Baker to get that Super Bowl MVP.

I mean, as a Browns fan, is there an AFC team right now, THIS SEASON, that makes you say "Oh wow, THAT team would be scary for the Browns to have to beat"?

The path to the Super Bowl is wide open for the Browns. 

[Zombo]

1 minute ago, Dutch Oven said:

Well if there was ever a year where he's surrounded by a ton of talent and there appears to be a clear shot at the AFC crown, it's this year for Baker to get that Super Bowl MVP.

I mean, as a Browns fan, is there an AFC team right now, THIS SEASON, that makes you say "Oh wow, THAT team would be scary for the Browns to have to beat"?

The path to the Super Bowl is wide open for the Browns. 

If we can get to 7-4 with Chubb and Hunt back for the bad-weather games ... watch out.

Z

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, Zombo said:

If we can get to 7-4 with Chubb and Hunt back for the bad-weather games ... watch out.

Z

Yeah, I'm not predicting the Browns going to the Super Bowl, but man oh man, when you look at the rest of the AFC, it's hard not to say "Why the hell not us?"

The defense getting healthy has me optimistic. 

[Dutch Oven]

54 minutes ago, nickers said:

Good.. I don't deal with simpletons like you..

I can totally understand this.

I mean, reading your intelligent, thoughtful posts on here, one comes to the conclusion that you obviously have a very good life, a very successful job, and a beautiful, loving wife.

Cheers to you nickers, and to all your obvious success. 

[nickers]

8 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Well if there was ever a year where he's surrounded by a ton of talent and there appears to be a clear shot at the AFC crown, it's this year for Baker to get that Super Bowl MVP.

I mean, as a Browns fan, is there an AFC team right now, THIS SEASON, that makes you say "Oh wow, THAT team would be scary for the Browns to have to beat"?

The path to the Super Bowl is wide open for the Browns. 

On this.. We can agree on..

[Dutch Oven]

Just now, nickers said:

On this.. We can agree on..

And thank you kind sir for taking me off ignore.

You have no idea how much that means to me, to have someone of your intelligence agreeing with me on something, even if it is only this one time.

May a Browns win today bring you joy, my dearest of friends. 

[Canton Dawg]

[nickers]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

And thank you kind sir for taking me off ignore.

You have no idea how much that means to me, to have someone of your intelligence agreeing with me on something, even if it is only this one time.

May a Browns win today bring you joy, my dearest of friends. 

Unlike some folks in the world.. I'm Man enough not to hold grudges.. I watched bitterness kill my father...

[Tour2ma]

22 hours ago, hoorta said:

Hmmm... I suppose a legit question is- if Jackson couldn't run like Kareem Hunt (LJ is the same weight, but 3" taller)  just how good a QB would he be?  

I'll let Tia correct me on the details- but the way the outmanned Dolphins beat him was to use a six man front, take away his outside running lanes, (and in the process collapse the pocket) and use a cover zero defensive backfield. Lamar couldn't figure out who was dropping into coverage.  For sure, Jackson is a supreme athlete- but listening to him talk.

Legit question, h… even if the last bit strays close to OB. UL ain’t Ivy League🙈🐒

[tiamat63]

23 hours ago, hoorta said:

Hmmm... I suppose a legit question is- if Jackson couldn't run like Kareem Hunt (LJ is the same weight, but 3" taller)  just how good a QB would he be?  

I'll let Tia correct me on the details- but the way the outmanned Dolphins beat him was to use a six man front, take away his outside running lanes, (and in the process collapse the pocket) and use a cover zero defensive backfield. Lamar couldn't figure out who was dropping into coverage.  For sure, Jackson is a supreme athlete- but listening to him talk, I doubt he's up there on the Ryan Fitzpatrick IQ level.  To date in 3-1\2 seasons, he's already more than half way to breaking Michael Vick's 15 season career rushing totals for a QB. Barring injury- he only needs about 2,600 more yards.  (Yeah, I had to look it up.)    Credit Lamar for have an uncanny ability to avoid taking kill shots- but you have to know- one is coming sooner or later.  

I'm lucky I caught a glimpse of this.  If you want my input buddy, just tag me next time.

I'll give the all-22 a going over and get back to you.  But the way the Titans and Bolts beat him in the playoffs was to attack the mesh on the option, then play man coverage behind certain 5 man pressures.

[SdBacker80]

59 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

I'm lucky I caught a glimpse of this.  If you want my input buddy, just tag me next time.

I'll give the all-22 a going over and get back to you.  But the way the Titans and Bolts beat him in the playoffs was to attack the mesh on the option, then play man coverage behind certain 5 man pressures.

Yes…add the Raiders this year.  They attacked the mesh point.  I remember watching that game thinking okay if the Raiders can do this why can’t we.

Good article here on it too. Raiders went cover 3 with the secondary having eyes in the backfield too 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.silverandblackpride.com/platform/amp/2021/9/17/22678276/raiders-defense-ravens-lamar-jackson

 

[hoorta]

8 hours ago, Zombo said:

Maybe I came late to the show here, but I was responding to the statement that Jackson IS the better PASSER.

I don't believe he is.

As far as career ... we'll see ... but I'd bet on Baker winning a SB MVP before Jackson does.

Z

Well, unfortunately- that won't be this year Z.  I won't totally put the  Patriots loss on Baker, but our defense plays like Mount Everest one week, Marianas Trench the next isn't going to get it done. Typical Bill B. game... When I find something that works- I'm going to keep doing it, until you prove you can stop it. WE COULDN'T.  Like runs up the middle. And when you sell out on that- I'll just get 10 yards at a crack running wide.  

Yeah- the Tampa Brady's got beat today too....  This year it's going to be minimizing your blowouts...  this was Browns suck game #?  

[tiamat63]

Re-watching the first half now.  Game was over, chess speaking, during the first Patriots scoring drive.   It's an absolute masterclass in play calling.  It's almost like watching basketball and running a pick and roll until you get the matchup you wanted.  Patriots really stayed in 21 and 22 personnel early and went at our starting IDL.  They held up pretty alright in all honesty.   But the idea was to run and throw on our backup IDL after hitting the body blows against the starters.  Togiai, Elliot, Jackson...  all lost their matchups and lost bad.      

Our backups aren't NFL quality at the moment and if you're weak up the middle, then your whole defense is weak.      

edit: A scary familiar theme where the offense finds itself completely fucked - straight drops.   I would love to see it, but Bakers passer ratings when not using play action has to fall a TON.  Especially this season.   That out to Njoku that was housed by Duggar is a problem for 2 reasons.   First - It's a roll to 2 shell post snap and Baker locked into the out the whole way VERY pre-determined throw.   That corner was in trail and peeking back, which is why I mentioned 2 trap.  He completely falls off DPJ running upfield onto Bakers eyes.    Even if the read was good, it was a 17 yard throw WAY to low and inside.     The read was bad, the throw was even worse.  Lucky it wasn't caught or it could have gotten David killed.    

[BaconHound]

Baker is an average QB, been saying it since day 1. When the offense is running the ball effectively he looks a lot better than he is.